CHICAGO, IL — Operation Rescue has obtained photos that reveal a possible abortion death at a Chicago abortion mill in March, 2004. The photos, sent by pro-lifer Ric Dugan, Director of Infants Rights Campaign, show a patient completely covered with a sheet being loaded into an ambulance outside the Albany Medical Surgical Center, located at 5086 N Elston at Cicero, Chicago, IL 60630. This abortion clinic is part of the Family Planning Associates Medical Group owned by the infamous California abortionist Edward Allred.
The ambulance arrived and left without lights or sirens and no clinic employee accompanied the “body.”
Later that day, a sidewalk counselor, who wishes to remain anonymous, approached an abortion clinic worker that the local pro-lifer’s have nick-named the “painkiller guy” and asked about the woman in the ambulance. According to the sidewalk counselor, the clinic worker responded, “These type of things happen occasionally and at every clinic.”
Pro-lifers report that the abortionist on duty that day was either Edward Steven Lichtenberg or Rudolph Muragne. Lichtenberg is responsible for the abortion death of 13-year old Deanna Bell who died during an abortion in her sixth month of pregnancy in 1992.
Pro-lifers in Chicago again witnessed an ambulance run to that same clinic on February 12, 2005. According to on site sidewalk counselors, the abortionist was a man from Quebec who got into the ambulance with the victim. Reportedly, it was his first day on the job at the Albany abortion mill. It is unknown if that victim survived.
Please voice your concerns with Alderman J. Levar, 45th Ward, City Council of Chicago, Phone: 773-545-2545. You may contact the Mayor Richard M. Daley at 312-744-6841, or 312-744-5732.
what an eye opener
Another Edward Allred death? How many does this make? 6? 7? more? More importantly, how many does it take?
As with any medical procedure, abortion does have risks.No procedure is perfect and the fact still remains that abortion is safer than childbirth.I just don’t understand what you all are hoping to accomplish by trying to close safe, legal clinics.
Teri,
Are you stoned or what? safe and legal? Wake up dumb-bone! When someone is dead (and a simple search of this website will show many dead abortion minded moms) IT IS NOT A SAFE PROCEDURE! So get out of your drug induced coma, stop listening to your pro-choice mantra cd’s and realize that real women die from your “safe, legal” abortions!
JackO
Pro-abortionists’ moto: “Baby-killing is safer than childbirth.” Sigh…
Jack and Matt,
I speak from my own personal experience.I had an abortion when I was 27 weeks pregnant that was performed by Dr. Tiller in Wichita.Even an abortion at that late stage was in some ways 40 times safer than natural childbirth.I am not saying that there are not bad abortionists out there-some of them are no better than back alley abortionists, however, by taking away the good ones, you are leaving women with nothing but the bad ones.
Okay, I did some reading on Edward Allred and I have to say that this man is a complete disgrace to professional abortionists (like Dr. Tiller), this man needs to never be allowed to touch another woman again.For once, I agree with you ORW.
Teri,
It’s not only this one guy who is a disgrace, but all abortionists are a disgrace to the field of medicine. Once upon a time it used to be that doctors were there to save lives and heal sick people. Now they also kill the most innocent of all – the unborn. Did you know that a 27-week old fetus has a high chance of survival outside the womb?
It makes me sick to hear stupid statements like “Abortion is safer than childbirth”. It is FATAL for the child. But then again, you probably hate children, so never mind. Just be glad your mother had enough pity on you not to have you cowardly murdered like you did to your own child.
May God give you unbearably horrible nightmares about your aborted child until you realize what you did.
Daniel,
I was raped and can you tell me with a clear conscience that a woman who is raped should be forced to have her rapists child??
I do not hate children, I am actually pregnant right now from a relationship that was consensual and I am going to have this child.
I have had plenty of nightmares already, it was not easy for me to go to Wichita, so please don’t judge me without knowing all of the facts..
Teri,
Actually, we have plenty of facts about you and your situation. You have incessantly spewed them forth ad nausium here on this site. Being raped doesn’t give you an excuse to murder. I think you have to constantly come here to defend the indefensible because you can’t live with the reality of what you have done. When you are defending the murder of your innocent child, it somehow makes you feel what you did was ok when it really wasn’t. You need help, girl, or one day reality will come crashing down on you and burst that blood-stained fantasy bubble you are living in.
WEll WELL WELL, I see once again you guys are bored. Why would you want to make abortion illegal? Is it because you HATE women and would rather they die from back alley abortions? Because that is way more dangerous than a legal proceedure.
Also, the reason the women come out of clinics with the sheet over their whole body is to protect their privacy. So people like you cant see their faces and go to their houses and bother them as you are so good at doing.
Another fantasy world heard from. When has any prolifer EVER followed an abortion patient to their houses and harassed them? Never! Wake up and live in reality, and stop believing proabortion fantasies. These abortion mills are nothing more than seedy chop shops preying on vulnerable women. Only the bottom of the barrel will even stoop to doing abortions. Any doctor with any real skill won’t dirty himself with child-killing. Only someone who hates women would advocate sending them to these butcher mills. Those who really care about women would work tirelessly to see that these dumps are closed and women are informed about the many pregnancy care centers across America where they can get true help.
Terri, I posted this earlier to another pro choicer about my story. My story accounts for at least half of the abortions performed in this country. If I knew the pain of “my choice” and that I would be living with this for the rest of my life, I would not have had an abortion. Here’s what happened to me:
heather
Why do you assume that pro life people never had an abortion? Many of us believed the feminist ideology that we were ending a “pregnancy” or removing a “blob of cells”. No one told us how we would feel when we decided to keep a “pregnancy” later on in life and allow a blob of cells to grow. We called these “blobs of cells” that we wanted our babies and learned the hard way when our babies were born what a miracle and a gift babies are. We learned too late that we made a mistake – a mistake that we could never revist and change. We now know we ended the life of an individual that is unlike any of the other individuals that we later decided to protect. We learned the heart wrenching pain that the date we ended the “pregnancy” would never be forgotten. We see our “blob of cells” peers and wonder who our little person would have been had we not given in to fear. My “blob of cells” would have been born in the summer of 1990. His or her life ended on Dec 2 1989. We now know the life we’re living is not the life we should be living had we not given in to our fear. I urge women, BASED ON FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE, DO NOT GIVE IN TO FEAR. Give your child life – it’s a choice you can LIVE with for the REST OF YOUR LIFE. (Which by the way, is a long time).
P.S. My boyfriend after making sure I went through with it, broke up with me two days later.
Posted by: susan at March 18, 2005 01:34 PM
An excerpt from Peggy Noonan’s latest article:
Prolifer’s believe you should be on the side of life. They remind me of what Winston Churchill said once when he became home secretary in charge of England’s prisons. He was seated at dinner with a jabbery lady who said if she were ever given a life sentence she’d rather die than serve it. He reared back. “No”, he said, “Always choose life! Death’s the only thing you can’t get out of!”
Deann,
I never chose to be raped and I made the best of a bad situation.I could not have done it without a doctor as kind and as caring as Dr. Tiller.I don’t live in the fantasy bubble you alluded to, the fantasy bubble is reserved for people like you who would rather watch women die at the hands of back alley butchers.
I am almost 14 weeks pregnant and I could not be happier.I am very excited about the arrival of my child and in no way do any of you have the right to judge me.The fact is that my abortion was not a matter of convenience-Susan, this is directed at you, but a matter of my own survival.I am sorry that you made a choice that was bad for you, but why try to take the option away for the rest of us who aren’t sorry about our choice?
I find it hard to believe you aren’t sorry about your choice. Because people come to this website and can represent themselves as anyone they want, I keep that in mind as I read along. It’s always interesting that the strongest supporters of late term abortion, Dr. Tiller, and abortion on demand are always rape victims, or were carrying a “defective” child. I find it hard to believe a woman so traumatized would seek out websites like this to tell their stories.
Tell me this Teri, did Roe v Wade legalize abortion for rape victims and for the life of the mother or did it legalize abortion on demand. Before Roe v Wade some states had legalized abortion already so I highly doubt you couldn’t have aborted your 27 week baby before Roe v Wade. Many state laws that may not have had abortion on demand would have allowed abortion in case of rape, incest or the life of the mother. I know New York and California had liberal abortion laws prior to Roe.
Feminist have been preaching for a long time that women should deny their motherly instincts and I’m here to say, you may end your problems in the short run by aborting but it’s a choice that can haunt you the rest of your life.
If your story is true, which you’re the only one who knows, you’re lashing out at good people who are trying to help women make choices they can LIVE with. Don’t project your situation and feelings on to the rest of us either when most women who abort have not been raped.
Teri,
Please tell us your website address, as I would like to let the 95% of women with abortion situations like my own hear my story. You didn’t answer my question – when was abortion legalized for rape, incest and the life of the mother or did it always exist? And if New York docs couldn’t do your abortion, that should tell you something.
Does anyone else find it interesting that there are no pro abort posters on this website who had an abortion for any other reason than rape or other unusual circumstances? There are over 1 million abortions every year in our country and none of these women with more ordinary circumstance ever come tell their stories.
There are a lot of websites for women who regret their abortions. One to check out is feministsforlife.org.
When I was pregnant with my fourth child two years ago was when I finally started coming to grips with all the grief over my past abortion. When I saw the ultrasound 10 weeks into my pregnancy it was so awesome and such a miracle to see my little guy so complete and moving around – out of all the beautiful sights I have ever seen in my life, that was the most beautiful.
I’m sorry but all the Tiller supporters who come here sound like marketing directors for his clinic and I’m sure he has a vested interest in attacking this forum.
For any woman going through what I went through, think long and hard, because it’s a hard decision to live with. Once you get pregnant your life is altered no matter what your choice is.
I, too, had an abortion and I too was raped. It was something that I will regret until the day I die. I don’t want to hear about how you needed an abortion to survive. If you couldn’t have lived with your rapist’s child then you could have given it up for adoption. A child isn’t born to be it’s parents – that child was innocent. Mine too. I listened to all the rhetoric about it being for the best. That this child wasn’t conceived in love but during a criminal act. That it was my right. Well, let me tell you, it’s also my right to have had nightmares about it. To have cried over it. And sure maybe you are happy as a clam that you are pregnant now but when this child is born you will look at it and wonder how you could have killed something that was a part of you. Not just a part of that rapist but a part of you. You will look at your child and wonder what the other might have been. It won’t truly sink in to you until you see the living breathing miracle of this child to understand what you did to your other. You are like I was. Taught to think of that child as something that was to be hated and feared. That child was demonized to me by not only health professionals but so-called friends of mine. I sincerely hope that you don’t have it as bad as I did because I believe that maybe you are looking for something by coming here and I hope and pray that you find it some day. But please, don’t think that abortion is ok. It is only a precursor to what is to come. We have let them kill our unborn. We have let them kill our unwanted (Terri). Now we are letting them kill our born. It is now happening that fully alive and born children are being murdered because someone feels they are a burden to society. They are not perfect. Do you know why I cry now? Because I live in a world that is a throw-back to the days of Hitler. And still people don’t see it. They still think it’s just the religious fanatics trying to take away their rights. Please.
bless you Anon, please pray for my heart to heal and I will pray for yours.
Laci Peterson’s mother said that the only thing that would ever bring closure for her for what happened to Laci was her own death. A mother’s love is deep.
As for me, now 15 years after my abortion, it gets harder every year. When I see kids who were born in 1990 about 14 and 15 it just breaks my heart.
God has truly blessed me with four beautiful children that I will do my best to instill a respect for life. But I will take my saddness to my grave.
Teri,
No matter how big Troy’s pot is Tiller’s is bigger, much bigger. Thank you Troy for fighting the good fight.
Sounds like you have a vested interest in the biz. So much for your “true confessions”. I thought Tiller was compassionate and caring – your sounding very greedy now. Did you forget about your earlier posts?
Abortionists feed off of women’s shame and fears. I’m posting here to tell my story and that’s it.
Tiller is truly a killer, let’s not make light of that. He kills babies with disabilities. He takes women who have been raped, a horrible reality that should never happen, and then offers them the abiity to murder the child within, another horrible burden.
And with the field of high risk obstetrics, there are many pregnancies that can be brought to delivery, where in the past they could not. If Tiller only saw patients where everyone agreed abortion is ‘necessary’, whatever that means, he would *never* make enough to stay in business. He needs to kill the healthy in order to stay open. He is an utterly sick individual and has deceived everyone of you who claim he is a caring professional. We know people by their actions.
It’s so obvious you’re from the Tiller marketing department.
You can’t change my mind, I’ve lived the nightmare of abortion. The me that was when I walked in that clinic will never be me again.
I’ll say it again – abortionists feed off of women’s shame and fear.
The only suckers are the poor women that abortionists convince that abortion will solve their problems. Plenty of women like me know we were suckered and suckered good when we now have to live out the rest of our lives with a hole in our hearts that will never go away.
But if you don’t have a heart you’ll never experience that. Most women have huge hearts and don’t realize the mistake they are making when they deny life to their child.
God Bless
Hmmm, where do I start. First of all, I didn’t have the internet when I went through my ordeal and had I, I would have liked to have read the abortion experiences different people had lived through.
Second of all, this is a pro life web site where someone like me may come looking for the above information.
Thirdly, I don’t think I’ve told anyone what to do, only what my feelings are now that I have a larger experience base and that they may too have similar negative feelings down the road if they choose abortion. I don’t propose to change the world, but I know that if I can make a difference in helping one person make a “better choice” then I can give my nightmare meaning.
Isn’t that what “choice” is all about. Allowing someone to weigh the pros and cons. Now that I know only what I know from having given birth to my children that abortion is forever and ended the life of an individual that is unlike any of the other individuals that I later chose to protect.
You are only seeking validation for your experience by seeking out pro life people and attacking them. You won’t even allow a pro life perspective on your web site because I’ve never been given the address to tell of my experience.
Operation Rescue allows discussion from both sides. Because I would like to make a difference, I propose that Operation Rescue open up a section for people like me to write their abortion experiences without having to be harassed by so called “pro choice” types. Obviously, you don’t appreciate my feelings because I regret my “choice” and would like to make a postive diffence in other peoples lives.
PS God Bless you sister
teri, what really triggered memories for me was when I had my first baby. then when I got pregnant with my fourth baby and it was a surprise for my husband and I, it brought back a flood of feelings that I finally had to come to grips with. When I saw my youngest in ultrasound at 10 weeks along I expected him (I didn’t know it was a him at that point) but I expected him to be formed but docile. Imagine my surprise when he was moving so vigorously all arms and legs. I have seen many beautiful things in this world but that was the most miraculous, amazing moment of my life. He was the size of a peanut and it was awesome.
Because of the element of surprise in this pregnancy, I finally told my husband about my abortion because I couldn’t contain it any longer. Unbelievalbly to me, he didn’t reject me or get angry at me, he total empathized with me. I always told him (my husband) that when I met him, I knew God hadn’t given up on me yet.
My oldest child is a daughter and then I had three sons. You’d think with the quantity of children you would run out of love and it’s amazing how much love you have for each life. It’s a total miracle.
teri, it’s because I understand now what I couldn’t even imagine back then that I now value life so much more. that’s what makes abortion so hard to live with. keeping that baby was probably not the right thing but giving that child life, i could definately live with that.
i was 22 and the clinic was the closest thing to a back alley abortion you could get. no they did not make sure it was something I for sure wanted to do they just collected their $230. I rushed my decision because I didn’t want to kill a baby that even looked like a baby and I was 5 weeks along. what I failed to realize is that child had a time line whether I wanted to face it or not. My boyfriend took me and because I wanted to please him and because he was very irresponsible I freaked out and went along like a robot. Basically the boyfriend wanted it to happen and his irresponsiblity made me feel very insecure. He broke up 2 days after and we had an on again off again relationship for several months after. It’s interesting the statistics of men his age who support abortion. I’m sure he feels no responsibility towards the abortion decision even though his behavior led me through those doors. That’s why I said earlier, once you’re pregnant, your life is forever altered, abortion doesn’t change that.
Teri
I find it interesting that you claim Dr Tiller gave you ‘your life back.’ He took your child’s life in the process. Your life was ‘given back’ at the expense of your dead baby? Though it is none of my business, I would be very interested in whether or not he let you look at the ultrasound picture. He snuffed out a human life, a violation of the original hypocratic oath (which stated a doctor would not give an abortive remedy), and not a very nice thing to do. He is not a good doctor, perhaps he is a successful abortionist, but he belongs where Dr Kevorkian (sp?) is right now and that is a jail cell.
Teri
Your comments about ORW as a wholw are quite unfounded, though you are free to have your opinion on abortion. The sidewalk counselors have introduced many families to Dr Stringfield next door at Choices medical clinic. Give away free baby clothes. The Choices clinic next door gives *free* appointments and lets people get free ultrasounds. Isn’t it a *good* thing when a couple rethinks the abortion, then chooses life, and things work out well? This does happen. I have been on ORW prayer walks, where both the women getting the abortion, and the unborn children, get prayed for. Is there a one of us who doesn’t need prayer? I am not an ORW representative, but I have followed this for a while, and I think you are somewhat misguided if you portray them as being just out for the money. Whatever your situation was, there are many couples who come to Tiller’s place not fully educated on things like adoption, perinatal hospice, etc and ORW has been instrumental in getting these people some help. Like all movements, there are some pro-life people who do not accurately represent the whole perspective. But there are many pro-lifers who simply want unborn children to live, moms to be safe, and people to know what they are doing. I detect some bitterness in your comments. I may be wrong about this, but if I am correct, may I suggest that you read (if you haven’t already) of the love that God has for each of us. The book of John is a good starting place. In all honesty, it is better reading than anything I or others have written on this site….
Teri
In all this conversation, I still bring back the point that the unborn child is a real human being. There are many abortion doctors, Bernard Nathanson being one who states he is responsible for nearly 75, 000 abortions, who have stopped doing abortions after watching ultrasound pictures. That is only one line of evidence here. As for the cost issue, I agree that having a child is very expensive, as you rightly point out. But across this nation our hospitals are full of people who cannot pay their bills. But that doesn’t mean they are just killed when the insurance doesn’t pay (though admittedly there are huge descrepancies in health care between the rich and poor). That cost issue is always there, but when we are speaking of a human *life* inside the womb, I still think we as a culture need to lean on the side of life. Are there some cases when abortion is needed to save the life of the mom? I have heard both sides of this. I respect your stand – I have not walked in your shoes. But many abortions can be prevented, and both mom and baby be ok. Choices clinic next door is a big part of this process also. Free ultrasounds, free referrals, and no appointment necessary…and many babies saved. And, why is abortion busy enough to be an industry? If we only focused on the ones that are *medically necessary* (if any are – again respectfully I don’t know, I am convinced Tiller could not keep the doors open.
I thought you were talking about Terri Schiavo, Ross…nvm
ross
“we’re all Christians here”?
what ever gives you that idea? people like you make a mockery of Christianity, by making every sin out to be no big deal and every sinner out to be a child of God, when that is not what the bible teaches. every person is NOT a believer, a Christian, or a child of God. some are children of the devil. read the gospel of john chapter eight.
some people, like teri, are proud of their decision to have their children killed. they sing the praises of the ones who do the killing, and condemn those who would’ve helped if only allowed to do so. prolifers don’t hate – they offer help to women and children free of charge. but some, like teri, prefer death over life. and they should be ashamed of that – God never approved of or condoned child sacrafice, and that is exactly what abortion amounts to. God’s word says “those who love death hate Me”. i guess we can safely count both of you in that category. but don’t come on here and demonstrate massive biblical illiteracy and call yourself a believer, and don’t claim that everyone is a child of God.
that is a lie straight from hell.
and teri, please, shame on you for blaming prolifers because you have chosen to worship at the altar of death and consider george tiller ‘the killer’ to be deity. a man who kills for a living is a shameful person, and someone who contracts with that person to have an innocent child slaughtered in cold blood is equally wrong, if she has not repented of her sin. the first words of Jesus were “REPENT, for the kingdom of God is at hand”. so without repentance, you are not a child of God, and there is no salvation or heaven for you, by choice.
the bible tells us that people will call good, evil, and evil, good.
teri and ross have shown us that philosophy in all its ugliness.
Ross:
I’ve read your attestations of the horrific abuse you’ve suffered throughout your life, and I would like to offer the following advice:
Seek counseling – immediately. I know all too well the devastating effects of delaying such needed help – and I can tell you that it literally saved my life. I, too, have survived more suicide attempts than Pamela Anderson had implants – and I believe that my finding the right professionals (my current physician and a gay social worker who clearly resembled Leonardo DiCaprio) made all the difference.
Religious beliefs can be of inestimable comfort, too. But it certainly doesn’t help to have someone force their own beliefs down your throat or to call you unspeakable names. (Just for the record, my former church does not teach that bisexuality – or homosexuality – is in and of itself a sin. It is non-marital (heterosexual) acts that my former Church condemns. But then again, it condemns a lot of things – and I know how difficult it is to live up everything I once felt compelled to believe in.
Yes, God asks us to do things that are difficult. But He does not, in my estimation, demand the impossible. And it is impossible to transcend the cruelty you’ve suffered without help. Trust me – I know.
P.S. I guess that’s why I have a particular sensitivity to rape victims. Then again, maybe I’m just old-fashioned……..
I’m really sick of extremism.. on both sides of the fence. Extremists live in a black and white world and want clear answers to everything. Either abortion is murder or it’s not. The death penalty is good or it’s not. You’re religious or non-religious. You’re red or you’re blue. We live in such a narrow society we’re becoming accustomed to assigning titles or values to others and ourselves. It’s ok to be on the fence on some of these issues. In terms of rape and incest, then absolutely do I think the right to an abortion should be available. You can convince me all day long that it is a human life (which I know by the way obviously it isnt something else).. But what you cant convince me of that it is the same thing as you or I, a living breathing human. Something without a heartbreat, brainwaves, or the viability to exist outside of the woman’s womb is certainly different than a 5-9 month old baby. I also believe that there are times where a woman should be able to have a choice to carry a pregancy. I also believe that any decision that these women make won’t be easy ones. Just because a woman may make a choice to have an abortion does not mean that she does not struggle, cry, or get upset. Life is about choices, and sometimes we make really, really hard ones. It’s ok to cry.. Why not start the healing on women who have been through the process of abortion? Everyday women who have had abortions hear the word “abortion” in the media. The word is so loosely thrown about it’s almost mind-numbing. Imagine being called a murderer for the rest of your life. As for Christianity, I think we need to reevaluate some of our stances on contraception. It’s simply out of touch with reality. I believe if we provided full access to contraception, we would not need abortion because there would be no unwanted pregnancies. The ones that did occur would be due to egregious misuse or irresponsibility. I think pro-choicers and pro-lifers should come together and work together. We’re not getting anywhere the way
we are doing things now.. After all, no one at the end of the day wants abortion.
ahhhh…the voice of reason. I think Americans do not understand is the meaning of pro-choice. The right to choose means just that: to *choose*. The majority of pro-choicers are not pro-abortion, they simply believe that people should be able to *choose* when they become parents, be it ten years from now when they’re more financially stable (or never) or right now because they’re ready. This means better access to birth control and education on how to use it properly as well as education regarding the realities of conception and pregnancy. Abortion should be a last resort and a decision made only after accurate, unbiased medical information is discussed with a woman’s doctor (which is actually required by several State laws). Any good doctor will require a woman who is at all unsure to think it over before performing the procedure, and any doctor who does not adequately educate and counsel a patient or has a high maternal mortality rate should be ousted because he is a bad doctor, not because he is a baby killer. Keep doctors who encourage good decisions; don’t leave women to make illegal decisions with the bad doctors.
We can no more judge a woman who chose to end her pregnancy than we can judge a woman who risked or gave her life to give birth to a child. But not every woman is willing to give up her own life for that of her unborn child, and she shouldn’t be seen as selfish for making that decision, just as a woman who dies for her baby shouldn’t be seen as delusional and foolish. Maternal live-saving options need to be kept uninhibited and safe.
We also cannot lump every woman who has ended her pregnancy into the same category. Some women will feel relief following their abortion; others will be haunted for years if not for the rest of their lives. Neither of them is abnormal – they’re human. What we need to focus on is not terminating options for women in a serious situation, but opening counseling and support options for women who have had an abortion. And for Heaven’s Sake, EDUCATE! Every child should be a wanted child, but as Lauren said, at the end of the day no one wants abortion. Medically accurate, unbiased education is the best way to prevent abortions, and both sides should be working together in an effort to prevent convenience abortions. Genuinely bad doctors need to be removed for the sake of *everyone’s* safety, and we need to stop fighting and work together for prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
Do you realize how ludicrous this sounds, posted under the photo of a (probably) dead woman being wheeled from one of your precious chop shops?? You say genuinely bad Drs need to be removed — well that would include ALL abortionists. I can’t think of ONE that isn’t a bottom-feeder, preying on women for his own wealth, ego, psychosis, etc. (fill in the blank). And if they were actually competent physicians, they certainly wouldn’t be doing abortions. Try reading “Lime 5″ from Life Dynamics to get a real dose of reality behind the “pro-choice” euphemism.
However, the comment that really make me choke on my morning coffee was the following: “What we need to focus on is not terminating options for women in a serious situation, but opening counseling and support options for women who have had an abortion.” In light of the fact that studies show that abortion is just as traumatic to women as rape or incest, this is like saying, “We shouldn’t limit the options of pedophiles, but we should simply provide more counseling for the victims.” This shows a shocking lack of understanding and callous disregard for the pain and anguish post-abortive women experience. How about if we protect women from this life-altering trauma in the first place! There are plenty of options out there for women and plenty of crisis pregnancy centers to provide them help. Murdering an innocent child never solves a person’s problems, but in reality adds a new layer of difficulties that most women cannot anticipate, nor are they prepared to deal with.
I can only speak for myself, but I would also guess that most women feel relief after an abortion in the sense they feel they have gotten out of a situation that was overwhelming and frigtening to them. The fact that abortion is legal is a powerful persuader to a woman in crisis. It seems like an easy out.
Being in a crisis pregnancy feels like being in a trap. When one chooses abortion, however, they find they have left one trap only to be trapped in another. The first trap is a 9 month sentence, the second is forever.
Before my husband’s grandfather died, dementia was setting in as he was in his 90’s. He was a father to seven children one of whom had died at birth. One Christmas we were at my in-laws having a huge gathering of all my father in- law’s family. Grandpa couldn’t remember whose house he was at. Shortly after that gathering when my father in-law was visiting with his dad, grandpa began talking about his baby, Charlie, who died. He could remember every detail of what happened, dates, the funeral home, everything.
Why I’m telling this story is because abortion doesn’t make a person not exist. Women who are in touch with reality and aren’t living in denial will finally come to grips with this. Grandpa never got to experience one minute with this baby, yet this baby touched him in a very deep way.
To those who think ideal circumstances are the only circumstances that a life is worth living. That is a total lie. Some ideal and perfect families can end up with horrible adult offspring and some of the worst situations can produce wonderful people.
To those who don’t understand why the world can be a polarized place. It’s because we live in an imperfect world and there will always be a fight between good and evil. People of principle will not be silent about the injustice that is happening.
One reason why ORW’s “pot” is so much smaller than Tiller’s is that killing babies pays so much more than saving them.
For the record, induced abortion is 400% more dangerous than childbirth. For details on this, please see afterabortion.org.
And yes, the book LIME5, though slightly dated, will shed much more accurate light on the abortion industry than vice versa…for obvious ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) reasons…
sara
other than being a collection of the most tired and pathetic of proabortion deceptions, i’m not sure what purpose your post served. no one on this site is foolish enough to buy into those ridiculous arguments, which lack not only intellectual honesty but basic common sense. it’s amazing how you proabortion advocates can lie to yourselves so easily. i suppose once one becomes good at lying to oneself, lying to others is much easier, eh?
the term “prochoice” was invented by a madison avenue firm in order to sell abortion. but a true “prochoice” movement translates to no law at all. because a rapist “chooses” to rape, a thief “chooses” to steal, and murderer “chooses” to kill. women who submit to abortion are in some cases lied to, in other cases self-deceived, in some cases forced to abort, but in a lot of cases, they are definitely selfish. because 98% of abortions are done strictly for birth control and have nothing to do with the lame, straw man justifications you drag out (that being, a woman’s life in danger), which are rare. and many abortions are repeat abortions, further proving that abortion is used as birth control, which is definitely selfish in nature, given all the other contraception options available.
but the main point is that an unborn child is a human being, and the only difference between a born child and an unborn child is level of development, size, age, and place of residence. but you trivialize that child’s life by allowing for its destruction based on those differences. and frankly, you shame all mothers with your arguments, seeking to create moral equivalency between women who kill children with those who give birth. a true feminist is one who respects the lives of children born and unborn, not one who worships the hedonistic desires represented by the poor choice crowd.
lauren
it seems like what you’re really sick of is logic and truth. it’s not extremist to seek the truth and stand by it, which is the essence of the prolife point of view.
i won’t be drawn into your silly references to the death penalty and other irrelevancies, but
as far as sitting on the fence goes, that is only a place for people without enough intelligence or intestinal fortitude to get off on one side or the other. once a person becomes educated, then there is no need to sit on the fence anymore.
now, as far as your ridiculous comment that even though the unborn is a human being, somehow it’s not quite as “human” as the rest of us – please. get real. members of the human family may be small, they may be weak, they may be less developed, they may be comatose, they may be missing limbs, they may be elderly, they may be in any one of the number of stages between conception (the beginning of every life) and natural death. but they are still human and still alive. your thinking parallels the nazi germany logic, where some lives aren’t quite as good as the rest of us, and can be snuffed out.
the unborn has a beating heart at only three weeks, and brainwaves at only six weeks, lauren. if you were EDUCATED in even basic seventh grade biology you’d know that. there is no difference between a “5-9 month old baby” as you put it, and a tiny, unborn child, except that one is more developed than the other. but no less human, and no less alive, and no less valuable. and your foolish assertion about viability is really as lame as it gets. viability is a term invented by a judge – it’s not really a medical term. and whether a child can “survive” outside the womb isn’t relative to whether it’s a HUMAN BEING or not. a two year old placed in a field could not survive without an adult – so i guess we could say that two year old is not ‘viable’, by your definition.
as far as your references to “starting the healing process” – on one hand you claim the unborn is less human and easily disposed of, but on the other, you indicate that women who choose to kill their babies will need to cry and grieve and heal. if abortion is no big deal, then why the tears? why the need for healing? it’s because abortion is a horrible thing and totally antithetical to the basic natural God-given role of a woman to be a ‘life-giver’, not a ‘life-taker’.
there are no end of silly remarks in your post, but i think the silliest is the following: “I believe if we provided full access to contraception, we would not need abortion because there would be no unwanted pregnancies.”
there is already full access to contraception now! and there are still nearly 1 1/2 million children slaughtered in the name of choice every year. so those 1 1/2 million babies killed are killed, in your words, due to ‘egregious misuse’ and ‘irresponsibility”. more contraception won’t solve the selfish hedonistic cultural tendencies that legalized abortion has created and fostered.
legal protection being returned to the smallest and weakest members of the human family will help more than anything to change the culture.
so when you poor choicers get to the point where you can admit the horrific damage that abortion has done to america, to women, to children, to the medical community, etc…., maybe you’ll abandon your obsession with the right to kill philosophy and join US.
I just feel this needs to be said. Yes, I agree that abortion is a very selfish act, but I also think other people are involved and other emotions come into play. Many women feel like they are letting down their families and don’t want to embarass or shame their parents. They partly feel they are doing the responsible thing by aborting so they don’t have to put their family through the stress.
Another person to factor in the selfishness are the men who helped create the pregnancy. Abortion has become a way for men to get out of their responsibility. Anyone who has ever been pregnant or known a pregnant woman knows she is like jello. The people she is confiding in are definately shaping her opinion and her ultimate choice. It is a time of emotional dependency for a woman when she’s pregnant.
It’s easy for a man to push towards aborting when he doesn’t feel the pregnancy in his body and because he doesn’t have to have the abortion performed on him. He doesn’t have to carry the guilt load because there aren’t any traumatic memories of the actual event. That’s why I believe abortion is truly another way to abuse women.
IRC, the Chicago based group that is investigating these “possible deaths” wants to thank all who have posted comments.
We hope some of you have called Alderman Levar or Mayor Daly to complain, but also to request that they assist IRC in our investigation instead of passing the buck.
We are now organizing a picket of Alderman Levar’s office.
We also want to thank all the great folks at ORW for their help, especially Cheryl Sullenger.
If you have any questions please feel free to e-mail us at: littleguyjonathon@yahoo.com
Thanks!!!
susan
well said. men deserve much of the blame for abortions – because instead of standing up to be men and fathers, they have weaseled out and left the girl all alone, or forced her to abort because they are too gutless to do the right thing.
but i will say that many men who have been involved in abortion later regret it and they do suffer pangs of guilt and remorse. some of the abortion mill bombings are suspected of being at the hands of post-abortive men who were not emotionally stable to begin with – they opted to take out their anger on the abortionist or the staff responsible for the baby’s death.
thanks for some excellent points and insight.
I hope that by communicating what my state of mind was at the time, that those who minister to women considering abortion can have some insight into what’s going through her mind. There are many women who have circumstances similar to mine and it’s hard to know the feelings unless you’ve lived it. Thanks to all those who try to help women in crisis.
I had eight abortions and was so unbelieving until I did not feel I was killing a baby because I had the abortions 2 or three days after confirmed pregnancy! Surprisingly, many women feel that they are not killing an infant! Even today, they are still debating when is the fetus considered a baby! Now, they’re even sadly saying that its 6 or 7 months after birth??? When you don’t believe God you will think this way…which is why I understand the prochoice mentality! Most, don’t believe totally in God’s word but believe in GOD or a higher power! I didn’t! BUT…WHEN GOD SHOWED ME MY CHILDREN…ALIVE…LIVING….HAPPY….CELEBRATING…toasting with wine glasses with the inscription “Amori” and playing regular music IT IS REALLY GRACE….HE SHOWED ME HIS POWER…HIS MERCY AND HIS GLORY….THERE IS A GLORIOUS HEAVEN AWAITING US WHEN WE BELIEVE HIM! I have joined msn and yahoo prochoice groups! Specifically to give my testimony and answer any questions they may have! I got two emails from unbelievers saying I was nuts but I got a few honest emails saying after reading my testimony they were speechless! That’s a good thing because it’s a sign that the reader may start questioning prohoice! I let them know that all I can do is tell them what GOD showed me! One email the reader asked me if I actually heard the LORD’s voice! Immediately, I emailed him with a definite YES…YES and it’s just like the Bible says..I however, made sure I included that the LORD’S voice is a strong Male Voice that is direct and sharp…it cuts through the spirit…IT IS A VOICE YOU WILL NEVER FORGET!!!!
After much research on the web, I’m finding that women who have multiple abortions are women who want to have children. One example described me to the “T.” This researcher said many women who have experienced death early in life…(my mother died when I was twelve) a parent it can have devastating consequences in the way that person think when they’re an adult! So true! And, that these women want to get pregnant but for some other reasons change their mind i.e. panic etc. and that many don’t feel they’re killing a baby in the early stages! Abortion is then used as a form of birth control! Today, 50% of the women who’ve had an abortion use it as a form of birth control! When they interviewed a group of women who had more than one abortion the majority did not feel that the fetus was a human being! In the beginning of my testimony I specify this because I was so unsaved and unbelieving. ALL WOMEN, AND MEN WHO DO IT MUST REPENT BECAUSE IT’S MURDER…IT’S ABSOLUTE MURDER!!!This is the main issue in re abortion that we should deal with….that you’re killing a baby…THAT LIFE IS AT CONCEPTION!!! I’m always quoting Jeremiah 1:5, Job 10:8-11 and Psalm 139:15…I first tell people I HEARD THE VOICE OF THE LORD because so many…good people…don’t believe the Bible, for a fact I KNOW I DIDN’T! I “THANK the LORD FOR SPEAKING TO ME” TOO BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH HE SHOWED ME MY CHILDREN, I PROBABLY WOULDN’T HAVE BELIEVED THE SCRIPTURES BECAUSE THEY ARE WRITTEN BY MEN!
I have a crisis hotline and I found out that telling one caller about Paul in the Bible (Persecuter of Christians…saved on the way to Damascus) helped her to overcome guilt! IT HELPED ME! And I keep Romans 3:10 “As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one.” as my armour to stay strong and committed to the prolife movement. I was at a rally here in downtown Chicago and the prolifers I was with were so nasty and judgmental even I felt ashamed to be with them! I jumped in the rally…a gay rights rally….I told them “I’ve done worst than you….etc.!” I could see so many trying to get their licenses to marry were listening to me telling them that they’re lifestyle was not going on in Heaven! The organizers asked me to leave….three couples left with me!
Speaking as a woman who has been through abortion (which I sorely regret) as a young teenager, I think I can speak with a little more authority than someone who has not been through that horrible experience. I was lied to, drugged without my permission (told it was antibiotic when it was in fact a sleeping pill), I was held down and FORCED to go through with an abortion after I changed my mind at the last minute by 2 employees of the clinic. I was never told the truth about anything that would happen to me or the unborn baby.
Abortion IS a selfish act!!!! It is murder and yes if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant she should NOT kill the child because the biological father is a rapist. The child has done nothing wrong and is innocent, a death sentence for him or her is a crime against humanity. It is the rapist that should be punished!
There is NO excuse for killing an unborn human being, none at all. It is the selfish me first attitude of people today who think that they have more rights than a baby simply because they are bigger and can over power the child. It is the ultimate child abuse!
Robert, actually Allred has 11 dead at his clinics, that I know of. I blogged about him and other NAFsters here.
Terri, I’ve blogged about that whole “Abortion is safer than childbirth” belief. You’d think that women would be dropping like flies from all those medically-indicated abortions CPCs were talking them out of.
Terri, if Tiller told you abortion at 27 weeks is safer than childbirth, he was lying through his teeth. Even the CDC, which is adamantly pro-aboriton, admits that by 16 weeks (by their data) the risks are equal, and that the risks of abortion double ever two weeks after the 16th week. What else did he tell you that isn’t the truth?
Teri, Allred’s still a member in good standing of the National Abortion Federation. What does that say about their standards?
Teri, was it a rape pregnancy you had aborted by Tiller?
Lauren, you said, “Something without a heartbreat, brainwaves, or the viability to exist outside of the woman’s womb is certainly different than a 5-9 month old baby.”
Heartbeat: 21 days. Brainwaves: 42 days. Viability: variable, but as early as 22 weeks.
sara, if “pro-choice” is really about just letting the woman choose, why are they so upset about informed consent, and about all the freestanding ultrasound studios posting images of young fetuses? Shouldn’t women be entitled to that information? Not according to the abortion lobby!
Christina,
It was a pregnancy conceived by rape that Dr. Tiller terminated for me.I was told that having my abortion using his MOLD method (which is a 4 day process) at 27 weeks was 40 times safer than me giving birth at full term, but that it carried the same complication rate as a full term delivery.I was at the clinic for one week and it was not an easy week.
Terri,
If you were “raped”, why didn’t you get the abortion when you found out you were pregnant? I know that it doesn’t take 27 weeks into it to finally figure out you are pregnant. The fact of the matter is…if you really were raped..then i don’t think you would have waited until you could fell your baby move within you and knowing you only had roughly 13 weeks to go until your baby was born.
Stop using rape as a scape goat to make late term abortion right. I know that if I was raped and I got pregnant as a result, and I thought abortion was the right thing, I certainly would not wait until 27 weeks!!!!
Lauren,
Ok, if an unborn child is not living, breathing, brainwaves etc., then why do abortionists have to “dismemeber” , “kill” or use chemicals to end the life?
These Dr.s that are killing babies know perfectly well that an unborn child is a living human beig (s)he is dependent upon it’s mother within the womb. Just as you were before you were born.
I’ll tell you, alot of people are surprisingly ignorant when it comes to an unborn child. It’s funny you seem to think that you get pregnant and BAM!, 9 mo. later you a living human only AFTER it is born. It really makes me laugh. Don’t act like you have never seen ultrasound videos of an unborn child or never watch “A BaBY Story” , I know you can’t be that ignornant and if you are I truly feel sorry for you.
saddened one,
i was 16 years old and i had no idea i was pregnant until i was in my third trimester.i was scared to death of telling my parents and i was in complete denial about the whole situation until i had to tell them.i am not using my rape as a scapegoat for my abortion, but i am attempting to explain exactly how young women find themselves at dr. tiller’s clinic.it was a tragedy all the way around and believe me when i tell you that my abortion makes my rape seem almost secondary.
please don’t judge me and tell me what you “would have done” because you have never been in my shoes.and don’t tell me that i am using my situation as a “scapegoat” to make late term abortion seem right.that week i spent at dr. tiller’s clinic was the absloute hardest week of my entire life.i have never cried so much.and i know that my son was a part of me, i have never denied that i thought of him as a baby or as part of me.it broke my heart to have that abortion.
LOVE, DEDICATION AND COMPASSION .
RIC DUGAN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR GREAT PRESENTATION
ENTITLED ” PRO- LIFE DEABATE ” IN EDUCATIONAL TV PROGRAM .
LESZEK
I can’t judge someones decision. I can say that its not about the baby. The baby will be taken care of, either through birth or abortion. Its the long term mental effect on the woman. Counseling should be in place to help them deal with the whole picture.