Jefferson City, MO — Operation Rescue will be in Jefferson City, Missouri, today with the Truth Truck fleet as President George W. Bush makes two appearances there. The Truth Trucks are large panel trucks covered with billboard-sized photos of aborted babies.
Operation Rescue has this message for President Bush:
“Mr. President, your recent statement that you support rape exceptions to bans on abortion is not a pro-life sentiment. Babies conceived in rape* are no less human or deserving of life than those conceived through consensual relationships. Abortion further traumatizes rape victims and contributes to slower emotional healing than those victims who give birth. Your statement sends mixed signals about the sanctity of life, the humanity of the pre-born, and your overall concern for the well-being of women.
“We call on you today to renounce your support for the killing of innocent pre-born baby boys and girls who are conceived through rape, and to put your support behind state abortion bans like the one recently passed in South Dakota and the one currently being considered in Missouri.”
Operation Rescue is in Missouri to encourage citizens of the “Show Me State” to support the Missouri abortion ban, SB 1248, which is currently being considered by the State Legislature.
*Operation Rescue holds that incest is a form of rape and includes it when referencing rape exceptions to abortion laws.
Read Missouri’s Proposed Abortion Ban
Exactly!!
It’s wrong to single out rape victims as being a group we should just abandon to the abortionists. They’re the ones that need us the most, and because abortion advocates used our natural sympathy for them as a wedge to establish abortion as a “good”, we got in the habit somehow of acting as if they’re an exception. As if what hurts other women somehow won’t hurt them!
As a woman who aborted a baby conceived by rape, I fully support banning abortions for rape victims. The memory I have of my rape is painful, but it pales in comparison to the abortion I had at the hands of Tiller. In fact, my abortion makes my rape seem almost secondary.
Having the abortion made my innocent son pay for his father’s crime. My baby was just as much a victim as I was, only I am alive to speak of it & he is not. We, as a society, do not sentence rapists & child molesters to death ( though I think we should ), so why kill the baby who committed no crime whatsoever ?
A lot of women who abort a child conceived by rape think that once the abortion is over that their life will go back to “normal” and everything will be all good again. I know that’s what I thought. The fact that I learned too late was that my abortion did not un-rape me and it did not magically make all memories of my pregnancy go away. On the last day of the abortion process, my “labor” was induced so I could deliver my “stillborn” ( that’s what Tiller calls it to try to take your mind off of the fact that you just paid him to murder your child. The dictionary defintion of “stillborn” is not “murdered in the womb”). At that point it kind of hit me that I was giving birth anyway, only I’d have no baby to hold. I wish with all of my heart that I had chosen anything but abortion. And it’s an awful feeling, knowing that there is a child who should be here, but isn’t. That’s what I want rape victims to know, getting pregnant as a result of being raped really sucks & it feels like your life is over, but killing the baby will only hurt you more, I promise.
Tina,
“my abortion did not un-rape me.”
–That line grabbed me, and pretty much says it all.
Right Christina!
No compromise!
Not only does abortion not ‘un-rape’ the victims of such violence- but repentance does not ‘un-abort’ the victims of abortion either.
(hmmmm, will that truth grab anyone?)
That is why justice must be sought for the bloodguilt that is on this nation by the shedding of this innocent blood. Only a just execution will suffice God’s requirement for earthly justice.
Thankfully, He is mercyful to redeem the eternal soul of the repentant sinner- regardless of the just consequnces that he should be required to pay here on here.
Robert
Absolutely 100% antibabykilling and pro-justice advocate.
Frank,
And it’s the truth. Having the abortion did not un-rape me, it was not a magic cure-all, and most tragically, it cost my innocent son his life. Believe it or not, I hardly ever think about my rape anymore, but I think about my abortion every day.
Tina,
CEAD MILLE BEANNACHT (Gaelic for a hundred thousand blessings) on you for sharing your experiences so forthrightly.
May we copy this to include in a handout to abortion-bound women who tell us that they have been raped?
We haven’t heard this one in a while, and don’t think it was always the case when claimed; the number of these claims seemed disproportionate to the comparative rarity of pregnancy resulting from actual assault rape, and we haven’t heard since two sidewalk counselors challenged the last person who claimed this with the fact that abortion was no better than rape, in that both violently force someone else’s will upon an innocent victim to the victim’s loss and hurt.
And, I have always wondered where the feminists were on this one…an abortion in the case of rape is not just a gross miscarriage of justice for women and children in that it capitally punishes at least one victim of the crime rather than the perpetrator (and it recklessly endangers the first victim), but is also an obstruction of justice for women in that it conveniently snuffs out and disposes the star witness against the perpetrator of the rape…you know, dna/paternity tests and all that…
Thanks again, slainte, & L’CHAIM!
Pat,
You have my full permission to use anything I say. If I can save at least one woman & her baby from what I’ve gone through, then my job is done. Also, you can take a look at my website http://www.abortionhurts.homestead.com
and feel free to use anything I have there as well.
As I said, my abortion makes my rape seem secondary. I have recovered from being raped, but I don’t think I will ever recover from my abortion fully. And more so than that, the rape was degrading, but the abortion was downright dehumanizing.
Robert,
You are cruel beyond any insult I could think of typing here. That’s right, repentence does not un-abort my baby. No one knows that better than I do. I have cried more tears than you could ever imagine. At least I can talk to other women and try to stop them from going down thw same path I did without being cruel about it. And being an ignorant prick doesn’t make you any smarter.
Robert…consistency would require that women who have had abortions be executed, under your position. They are just as guilty as the abortionist — if not more so — because they paid for it. Are you prepared to say that Jesus would be in favor of the execution of over a third of all American women? If not, you are inconsistent at best and hypocritical at worst.
“And, I have always wondered where the feminists were on this one…an abortion in the case of rape is not just a gross miscarriage of justice for women and children…but is also an obstruction of justice for women.”
–As to where they are, they basically don’t care IMHO.
–It seems to me that the so-called feminists you’re referring to are not in favor of helping women’s rights at all; instead, they favor helping their own slanted causes, which disgracefully includes abortion on demand, freely and easily, to all who want it, usually at taxpayer expense.
It’s instructive how groups like NOW loved Bill Clinton, in large part becasue of his views on abortion, despite the fact that many of his actions were hardly “pro-woman.” The Lewinsky/ Flowers incidents, wherein a male essentially misused political power for his own personal gratification at womens’ expenses, are beyond disgraceful, yet where was NOW then? (pun intended). Even if Monica was allegedly “consensual,” there’s nothing defensible about it, given his power over her: she was an intern & he was the President.
Frank,
Another interesting thing I know about NOW. They used to escort women into Tiller’s mill for abortions until a few members of the organization observed Tiller during a few procedures. They withdrew their support of him because, and I quote, ” He was real rough and arrogant with the women and did not respect their privacy “. As a former patient of his, I can tell you that that’s completely true. NOW withdrew their support, but did not publish their findings, thus giving women & girls going in there NO warning what he was really like. If that doesn’t prove that so called feminists don’t care one bit about women, I don’t know what does.
Holly,
Are you willing to say that God does not think that abortion is a murderous offense?
God lists those sins that execution is the just consequence for- not me. The Bible teaches that murder is a capital offense. It is HIS position.
You may be compelled to disagree with God. I am not so designed to think myself wiser and more just than He.
Tina,
Perhaps smarter- since I did not choose to willfully kill my child.
You agreed with this ‘ignorant prick’ so I guess I was at least as smart as you-
Robert,
Not only are you not God, but you are also not a woman. I was a teenager when I got raped & had my abortion. I was young & really stupid & very unimformed. You cannot even claim that as the reason for your ignorance. And while I may agree with you on some things, I will never advocate murdering abortionists, abusing post abortive women, and just being a dick in general. You, as a man, 1.could never really be raped, I mean technically you could be, by another man, but you could not be raped in the traditional sense of the word 2.you could never become pregnant as the result of that rape. When you are raped & get pregnant as a result of it, then you can be a judgemental asshole all you want. What I did was wrong and it will hurt me every day for the rest of my life. I have been forgiven and I will continue to tell my story in the hopes that women see how much abortion hurts.
Contention is not born of love….Jesus spokethe truth in love*. (ala “thisis how the world will know you, by your love…)
One can say the truth just as powerfully, actually more so, just like Jesus did WITH LOVE
Robert:
Of all the posters on this thread, I don’t think you are in any position to call yourself superior to absolutely any of them, Tina least of all.
You have personally attacked, threatened execution of, and called names to, if I count correctly:
1. Those who have had abortions;
2. Those ignorant of the facts of abortion, including young people;
4. Anyone who might call themselves prochoice, including Republicans and Democrats alike;
6. People who work on the Sabbath;
7. Homosexuals;
6. Everyone who doesn’t agree with you.
*. People of other faiths;
*.
I hope to never actually meet anyone as bogusly sanctimoneous as you, which will be hard, since you ooze it. I realize you probably can’t even pronounce the word “sanctimoneous” but if you sound it out even a spiteful little child can manage it.
Besides, the god you pray to isn’t the God I or others out there pray to. Yours is bloodthirsty, demands death of all those who don’t see as his lone chosen apostle (Robert) does, and clearly wants servants who hate and attack everyone, like you do.
I wasn’t finished, nor had I spellchecked, which you don’t.
Now do us all a favor and get lost.
Frank,
You do not disappoint any anticipation placed on your ilk. Again, in your disagreement with God’s law-
you use you customary MO and lie-
Even continuing in your habitual bearing a false witness-
False witness in a capital crime (see below)
You continue to show that you do not know the Bible- not even well enough to understand the requirements an apostle must have. Do you know alot (any) of apostles alive today, Frank? rofl@U
Unlike you, I study my Bible- I have tried to study just how many offenses there are which merit the death penalty according to God. I found this interesting list of 24:
According to the Bible, these are the offenses which merit the death penalty.
Murder (Exodus 21:12, 21:15)
Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
Disobedience to Parents (Exodus 21:17, Deuteronomy 21:18)
Beastiality (Leviticus 20:15)
Violations of the Sabbath (Exodus 31:15)
Adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Leviticus 19:20)
Abominations (Leviticus 20:2)
Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16)
Incest (Leviticus 20:11)
Homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13)
Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27)
False Prophecy (Deuteronomy 13:5)
Rebellion/Treason (Joshua 1:18)
Worshipping a false god (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
Sodomy (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13)
Sex with a woman betrothed to another (Deuteronomy 22:25)
False witness in a capital crime (Deuteronomy 19:16-20)
Daughters of preachers fornicating (Leviticus 21:9)
Juvenile delinquency (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
Sacrificing to false gods (Exodus 22:20)
Disrespecting a judge or priest (Deuteronomy 17:22)
Sex with a woman during her period (Leviticus 20:18)
Unchastity (Deuteronomy 22:21-24)
Cursing someone (Leviticus 24:14)
These are from the God of Abraham, Creator of heaven and earth, the Just.
Which does your golden calf god which you fashioned after your own imaginations of how a god should be- disagree with?
Funny how all those comments come from the Old Testament. Guess you stopped reading there.
I guess all Catholics who oppose the death penalty, and follow Rome’s teachings, are also abominations.
Like I said: disagree with Robert the almighty, get a hate rant in return. Like I said, get lost, you ignorant baby.
To all gentle readers:
I am glad that some of you, like me, are unimpressed by the claim that because one can spew forth English translations of a few lines of the Bible, that person is thus entitled to judge the souls of others, or worse, hate or kill them, and/or to believe themselves powerful enough to have the right to do so.
Robert’s list of those deserving death is long. And you know what? Maybe when those books were written, that list was believed. But those books got SUPERCEDED. That’s the miracle of Jesus that a child can understand, and that those who memorize every line of the Old Testament miss completely: Jesus died, so we don’t have to.
And on that note, happy Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and most of all, Happy Easter and new life to all.
Love,
Frank
Frank,
I agree with you & I could not have worded it better. Happy Early Easter.
Robert,
I hope that someday you open your eyes to the truth rather than wishing for the execution for pretty much anyone who’s ever sinned.
Again Frank-
God is believed TODAY by those who love His law as the source of converting the soul and makinmg wise the simple- as scripture says It is.
Exactly which scriptures was Timothy refering to in the NT if not these OT scriptures? There was no NT when God inspired Timothy to write these words.
I am glad to provide for you the New Testiment says that the OT is profitable for DOCTRINE,
reproof , correction and INSTRUCTION in righteousness that the man of god may be perfect; thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:16
The NT says, if you love Me KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. Are those in the new or old testiment?
There are consequences of sin.
There is a difference between just consequnces and payment.
Christ paid the PAYMENT for our sins. However, we individually and nationally will pay the consequences for our sins. Abortion, homo sex, porn, murderers, child molestation etc…. one of these consequences (NOT payments) may well be the death of innocent people as well as the guilty.
{I have always thought that David sinned with the taking of the census; but who am I to argue with that scripture?) The bible says that David was righteous in all things except for his sin regarding Uriah (which included adultery and murder).
David and Bathsheba’s son died because of their adultery. This death was not payment for David’s sin- (scripture says David was forgiven) but the child’s death was a CONSEQUENCE of it. David’s daughter was also raped
Warnings about homo sex having consequences are true. God is not mocked.
We are able to learn valuable lessons form King David’s loss.
David’s sins with Bathsheba and with Uriah were forgiven, but the death of this child was still necessary. Sin has painful consequences. Even though our sins are forgiven, they are never worth the price tag that comes in terms of consequences.
Re: NOW, where were they when Michael Schiavo and other men were mercilessly torturing Terri to death last year…? If they really cared a rats behind about justice, the well-being of women, putting a stop to male chauvinism (this was the most egregious example of it on public display I can think of besides the porn industry), etc., they would, could and should have been in the faces (their professed position of choice when they want to be seen & heard) of all involved demanding that Terri be LIBERATED from the brutal tyranny of Schiavo, returned to her family of origin, and given all the therapy Schiavo denied her…and that a full, honest investigation be conducted into Schiavo’s behavior towards her, especially on the night of her disablement…an investigation not controlled by the vested interests of the prodeath movement.
Regarding the meaning of Good Friday…
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” (the New Testament)
He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.
“I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. (From the Old Testament)
Either the scriptures mean this (and all the passages listed by Robert as sins), or they mean nothing.
Frank,
You may not be aware but the Lord Jesus Christ quoted the Old Testament all the time, as did the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter. Jesus called the Old Testament The Word of God, so you should not make light of God’s Word.
The sting of sin is death. the strength of sin is the law.The law was never set up to save souls, but condemn them.
Christ did not do away with the law, He fulfilled it. The law is still in full effect, and condemns them who do not know Christ.
The civil authorities were also set up to bring God’s vengance, wrath, and judgment on evil doers.
The death penalty comes right thru the cross in Romans 13, and also in 1Timothy 1:9-11 [most offences in the timothy reference carry the death penalty]
One can not scripturally make a case against the death penalty from the Bible.
If one tries, they are either a biblical iliterate, have an ax to grind or both.
Either abortion is murder or it is not. Either the abortionist and the mom who hired them deserve to be punished as such, or open all the prison doors, and let all evil doers off scott free.
A little consistancy here folks. What a ya say?
Rick,
“The death penalty comes right thru the cross in Romans 13, and also in 1Timothy 1:9-11 [most offences in the timothy reference carry the death penalty]”
–1 Timothy 9-11 says absolutely nothing about the death penalty.
“The civil authorities were also set up to bring God’s vengance, wrath, and judgment on evil doers.”
–And your support for this conclusion is…what? And who is an “evildoer?” Whoever you say? Whoever the Bible says [and which includes those who work on the Sabbath, etc.?].
“One can not scripturally make a case against the death penalty from the Bible.”
–Actually, one can make a very good case. The 10 Commandments; Romans 12:19; Matthew 7:1-5 (“Judge not, that ye be not judged.”); Jesus’ refusal to condemn the adulterous woman; and the Beatitudes can all be
interpreted to oppose the death penalty.
–Moreover, you ask for “consistency.” The problem is that when you base appeals to “consistency” solely on the Bible, the result is completely INconsistent with a loving, forgiving God. For example, Robert’s ever-growing list of “offenses” warranting death includes items like working on the Sabbath and sleeping with a woman during her period. Are you really, really saying that a nice, devout, “saved” doctor who gives half his money to the poor, adopts 3 homelss children, and is an elder in his church, deserves DEATH if, for example, he works on the Sabbath to save a dying child? Of if he happens on a dying child on the Sabbath and saves his life?
–I also posit that the Bible is not the sole authority on matters such as the death penalty anyway [now I'm REALLY gonna get it...]. For example, the position of the Catholic Church on such matters is based not only on the Bible, but on the guidance of the Church as a teaching institution and a guide for the faithful. Like it or hate it, the Catholic Church’s position is simple and a model of consistency [which you ask for]: Life is life, period, and abortion and the death penalty are the same. John Paul II, who I daresay studied the Bible more than anyone on this board, wrote that it was almost impossible to conceive of times when the death penalty is needed. So simply parrotting the words of the Bible will not change any minds if the listeners believe [with justification] that the Bible is not the sole authority on the subject.
–Again, if you want consistency, be prepared for the reality that the Bible can be used to condemn half the world for minor “offenses”…but also says things like, “slavery is okay as long as you have slaves from other countries.” Are you in favor of such slavery? Come on now, be consistent.
–Finally, I submit that it’s far more “illiterate” (2 “Ls,” not 1) to simply memorize whatever passages from the Bible that happen support one’s preconceived views and prejudies, than it is to be familair with the themes, purposes, and overall directions of the books of the Bible, but hey, I’m gonna get it anyhow, so why hang back now?
come on frank. are you playing dumb, or are you really this dishonest all the time.
The timothy verse does not need to, it merely makes reference to other scriptures, and the proper use of the law, which is to condemn the wicked, which includes the death penalty.
The ones who deserve such punishment are numbered in the verses given.
The bible is not inconsistant about the charator of God, only the god you are creating from the idolitry of your own mind.
There is no place for mercy to land unless justice is established.
The mercy of God could not be extended to man until justice was fufilled at calvary.
Until one has experianced Christ , the full wieght of the law, and God’s righteous wrath abides on the unbeliever.
Your strawman of slavery has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and is not the type of slavery praticed in america. The bible does not call slaves sub human as the american high court did in the dred scott case. as a matter of fact very detailed instructions are given for the humane treatment of indentured servants. no where does the bible call a slave in the same catagory as cattle. And the bible says that indentured servants are to be let go, and all debts paid in the year of jubalie.
Once again, you use half truthes to blow smoke and mis direct.
You make the acusation of preconcieved views and prejudies. Mind telling me what they are?
Do evil doers deserve some kind of punishment?
Your false god of free love is the one that is cruelest of all.
You say that He will ignore the murder of an inocent pre-born, so He can “love” the assasin, and monster mom who killed them?
How can on call it love to ignore justice for inocent blood?
The adultress woman was penatant, and God’s mercy could be extended. None of the verses you quote does away with the death penalty.
The judge not verse does not apply here, as it is the judgement of God in which we are talking about not my own.
Rick:
Okay, so you’ve called me the usual litany of names I always get called, said I worship a “false god of free love,” etc., but have not actually answered any point I put forth:
“come on frank. are you playing dumb, or are you really this dishonest all the time.”
–Dishonest? How? To say, “I don’t believe the Bible is the sole authority on the death penalty, prove otherwise?” Nothing dishonest there, given the agreement of a) millions of mainstream Protestants; b) millions of Catholics; and c) the Catholic Church itself. And by the way, Rick, I’d say I’m a bit more open to intellectualism than you, anyway, given your need to namecall when like a child you get some resistance to your positions.
“The timothy verse does not need to, it merely makes reference to other scriptures, and the proper use of the law, which is to condemn the wicked, which includes the death penalty.”
–Says who, other than Rick Ellis?
“The ones who deserve such punishment are numbered in the verses given.”
–Again, like Doctors who save lives on the Sabbath, according to you.
“The bible is not inconsistant about the charator of God, only the god you are creating from the idolitry of your own mind.”
–The only person who is being inconsistent is you. And you like namecalling, don’t you? Sticks and stones will break my bones, etc. Don’t be so quick to judge.
“There is no place for mercy to land unless justice is established.”
–Jesus DIDN’T say, “blessed are the merciful but only when and if justice is established first.” We have a system of justice in this country. The fact that you may not subjectively like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
“Until one has experianced Christ , the full wieght of the law, and God’s righteous wrath abides on the unbeliever.”
–I have no idea what you are talking about.
“Full weight of the law?” What’s that mean? Until you’re executed by Rick & Robert?
“Your strawman of slavery has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and is not the type of slavery praticed in america. The bible does not call slaves sub human as the american high court did in the dred scott case. as a matter of fact very detailed instructions are given for the humane treatment of indentured servants. no where does the bible call a slave in the same catagory as cattle. And the bible says that indentured servants are to be let go, and all debts paid in the year of jubalie.
–Bad argument, Rick: the Bible says, what it says: Slavery is acceptable if you don’t have slaves from your nationality. My Point is the fallacy if accepting the Bible as the 100% sole authority on everything, like the death penalty.
“You make the acusation of preconcieved views and prejudies. Mind telling me what they are?”
–Sure: The preconceived view that the death penalty IN SOME FORM is acceptable, based on your own desire to punish whoever you think are “unbelievers”. The problem is, if you want to base your position on the Bible, you’ve got to have the Bible’s view on it, in it’s entirety: Death for those who work on the Sabbath, have sex with a woman having her period, etc., and a load of other “offenses” which no one in their right mind believes in this century if they ever did. That’s one reason why the Bible isn’t the authority you think it is.
“Do evil doers deserve some kind of punishment?”
–Yes. Death? No.
“Your false god of free love is the one that is cruelest of all.”
–You love to call names, too bad it’s so dumb to do so. “Cruelest of all?” No, cruel is killing the doctor who saved the kid on the Sabbath. You and Robert can’t seem to answer that one, having failed to address it in like 6 separate posts by me.
“You say that He will ignore the murder of an inocent pre-born, so He can “love” the assasin, and monster mom who killed them?”
–Ignore? No. Kill everyone based on your own view of who’s bad? No, either.
“How can on call it love to ignore justice for inocent blood?”
–I never said ignore it, Beavis. I said, “don’t kill others” and “be consistent.” Besides, if we start killing people based on who you think has “innocent blood” on their hands, eventually you will get around to killing abortionists’ receptionists…or the receptionists’ landscapers…or nonmilitant prolifers…or me. Pretty soon, too, by the looks of it.
“None of the verses you quote does away with the death penalty.”
–And nothing you allege [and certainly not your namecalling] otherwise indicates the problems I and a few million others have with basing one’s view solely on the Bible. And nothing you allege shows me why we execute the doctor who saves the kid on the Sabbath. or why namecalling of a fellow prolifer is acceptable, etc.
“The judge not verse does not apply here, as it is the judgement of God in which we are talking about not my own.”
–Interesting that certain verses “don’t apply” when you don’t want them to. This seems a recurrent problem of yours: Bible says somehting you don’t like? Uhhhhhh….That verse…uhhhhh…doesn’t apply! Yeah! It doesn’t apply!”"
–I posit that many of the posters on this board whould characterize their positions as “the Bible says it, I believe it.” Fine. The problem is, when pushed, that position can actually be more accurately summarized as “I believe in my, and/or my pastor’s, INTERPRETATION of what the Bible REALLY MEANS, and if you disagree you’re an idolator/worship a false god/am a babykiller, etc.” That last part loses just about everyone.
I will say it again,….Jesus said about his disciples “you will know them by their love…” yes, there is the law, of course there is the law, and GOd’s Word is righteous and true and eternal, infallible and God-breathed. However, following and preaching God’s Word *without* love makes one as a loud clanging symbol or a empty gong. We all need to be aware of that, you can be the most righteous prophet person, following (or trying) to follow all God’s laws (which by tghe way you cannot do), but if you are not allowing God’s love and MERCY to work through you, if you are no demonstrating that to others, so that the world can see it, you are as Corinthains says a clanging symbol. LOVE, one another….
I just want to say to anyone ( Robert specifically ) who thinks that women like me should be sentenced to death, the guilt & pain I deal with every day is far worse than any punishment that some degenerate could wish upon me.
As I stated before, having my abortion did not un-rape me, my baby paid the ultimate price for his father’s crime. When I found out I was pregnant as a result of the rape, I really thought my life was over. I didn’t want to have to tell my parents and it was a living nightmare. It took me 3 days ( I stayed home from school ) to tell my mom & when I told her that I was 7 months along, she just sat there and cried. When I got back from having the abortion, things just got worse. The abortion didn’t fix anything, I felt like I wanted to die for a long time after it was over.
I came across a comparison between abortion & life that sums it up pretty well..
If you choose abortion..
Your pregnancy ends with death.
you may feel guilt and shame about your choice.
You will remember taking a life.
Abortion is final, you can’t reverse your decision.
You will never know or treasure your baby.
You will miss the opportunity to see your child develop.
If you choose life..
Your pregnancy ends with giving life.
You may feel good and positive about your choice.
You will remember giving birth.
You will have plenty of time to plan you and your baby’s future.
You can hold, name, and love your baby.
You can have continued contact with your child.
To Frank,
Of course the Bible, the Word of God, is the sole authority for believers and unbelievers, see Luke 16. Only a fool says that there is no God (Psalm 14). God Almighty is the one that judges, not us. You missed the point when referring to the doctor. Salvation is not and never has been a balance in which God weighs our good deeds against our bad deeds. A doctor working on the Sabbath saving a child cannot atone for his sins any more than executing the same doctor will atone for anyone’s else’s sins. Only the blood of Jesus can do that. You missed another very crucial point: all of us on the planet will die of something someday. The question is, where do we go after that? Hebrews 9 says that we go to judgement! Then it is Heaven or Hell. Keeping the law (or breaking it) on this earth will not determine where you end up. Only by accepting Christ can you see Heaven, see John 3:3. This ties in about rape and abortion. The baby had nothing to do with the crime ( read my lips), so you are executing the wrong person. You say you are against the death penalty, but it is acceptable to execute the child for the sin of the father. Not only is it wrong (see Ez. 33), it doesn’t make any logical sense.
Clifton:
Well, since at least you didn’t condemn me to hell like some others, or call me names, so the least I can do is provide an equally courteous reply:
–Luke 16 does not seem to have anything to do with the Bible as the sole authority for believers or nonbelievers. Am I missing something?
“You missed another very crucial point: all of us on the planet will die of something someday. The question is, where do we go after that? Hebrews 9 says that we go to judgement! Then it is Heaven or Hell. Keeping the law (or breaking it) on this earth will not determine where you end up. Only by accepting Christ can you see Heaven, see John 3:3″
–All of us die someday and go somewhere. True, no argument here. We get judged. Again, no argument here. Although John 3:3 says what it says, the problems therein are these:
A. John 3:3 does not account for those who claim to “accept Christ” yet parade around committing the vilest deeds. Murder, rape, arson, etc., become acceptable merely if one “accepts Christ” first. Essentially, if one “accepts Christ,” there becomes no accountability for any bad acts done thereafter. Now the counter argument is: One who truly accepts Christ wouldn’t do those things. The counter-counter argument is: Those bad acts are carried out daily by the millions all around the globe, by those who claim to “accept Christ.” Look at it on THIS BOARD: There are many who would apparently KILL ME, just because of what I’ve written! Jimmy Swaggart is another fine example: Here’s a minister who said he “accepted Christ” yet was fooling around on his wife the whole while. That opens up the reality that some may say they have accepted Christ yet haven’t, in which case everyone’s conduct is open to question — and perhaps rightly so.
B. If you look at the posts here by others, they all seem to suggest that a) whole blocks of people — “idolators,” or “those who work on the Sabbath,” etc., are worthy of death, or going to hell, etc. All of that wrongly usurps God’s right to judge us, and only he can know our hearts.
C. I’m sorry, anyone who really thinks that the Doctor who saves the kid on the Sabbath deserves death — literally — is treading on theologically thin ice. The whole problem is that the “the-Bible-says-kill-him-so-it-shall-be-done!” approach is just the sort of legalistic, simplistic approach you seem to be opposed to, as well you should be. I really, really, don’t think that the concept of calling that doctor a sinner and packing him off to hell is in any way keeping with the spirit of God’s word or his message to the world
Finally, I think deeds are much more important than you may think. That’s why, for example, many religions (Catholicism, Judaism, etc.) place suhc emphasis on good works. Second, how else does the world know what’s in our hearts? By our acts. Third, emphasis on acts precludes to a great extent the problem of the person who claims to accept Christ but then goes out & murders someone. I believe it is theologically more acceptable to say that you accept Christ by your acts than by merely saying “I accept Him!”
But I’m getting way off topic, sorry to all others.
First Of all franky, just what names have I called you. Uh let me answer, none.
The Romans 13 reference most assuridly is about the governments duty to administer the death penalty.
It is not my judgement, I merely repeated the word, that is why the judge not verse does not apply. It aint my judgement we are talking about, it is God’s.
Should we exicute those who kill already born children?
Are you saying no death penalty at all?
Should we surrender the right to defend our selves and inocent life, and just allow murders to kill us all if they want, so we can be loving?
Should we take away the God ordained duty of policemen to protect the inocent, by deadly force if nessisary?
Are we to take the right of a father to kill a murderer bent on killing the father’s Children?
Am I to stand quietly by, and watch an evil doer kill an inocent, or do I take the shot to stop them?
Are we to do away with the second amendment that gives every american the right to defend themselves?
I don’t know what world you live in, but it ain’t the real one.
You are not a fellow pro-lifer, as you would turn us all over to those who would take it in the name of your false love.
Rick:
“just what names have I called you. Uh let me answer, none.”
–You said I worshipped a false god. And was either “playing dumb” or “just dishonest.”
“It is not my judgement, I merely repeated the word, that is why the judge not verse does not apply. It aint my judgement we are talking about, it is God’s.”
–The “Judge not” verse and the “Vengeance is mine” verse say, what they say. Some try to circumvent them by saying “uh…hey! I know ! I can be an instrument of the Lord’s vengeance by killing those the Bible condemns!” Nice try. Sorry.
“Should we exicute those who kill already born children?”
–Why stop there? Some on this board want to “exicute” those who work on the Sabbath, those who sleep with a woman having per period, etc. If we base killing abortionists on the Bible, I think we have to kill those who work on the Sabbath too, since the Bible supposedly condemns them too.
“Are you saying no death penalty at all?”
–Yep. That’s about it. Popular? Maybe not today. Consistent? Yep. But then you wanted that, didn’t you?
“Should we surrender the right to defend our selves and inocent life, and just allow murders to kill us all if they want, so we can be loving?”
–Self defense and the death penalty are totally different issues. Don’t change the scope of the debate now that you’ve having trouble justifying all these executions, okay?
“Should we take away the God ordained duty of policemen to protect the inocent, by deadly force if nessisary?”
–Same issue. Besides, the problem is “God ordained.” Some crazies out there have apparently decided it is “God ordained” that we use deadly force to kill abortionists…and those who work on the Sabbath…and those who sleep with women having their periods…and a few more, etc. Rational people get really frightened when others start rants which use “God ordained” and “killing” in the same sentence. Besides, I wasn’t referencing GOD-ordained conduct. We were referencing “BIBLE-ordained” killing, remember?
“Am I to stand quietly by, and watch an evil doer kill an inocent, or do I take the shot to stop them?”
–Evil doer? In whose eyes? Some might say those who want to kill whole classifications of people in the name of their religion are the evildoers.
“Are we to do away with the second amendment that gives every american the right to defend themselves?”
–As usual your sources do not support your claims. The Second Amendment actually says “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” The Second Amendment does not reference the right to “defend oneself.”
“I don’t know what world you live in, but it ain’t the real one.”
–Hey, pal, you’re the one who wants to say who gets to live & who has to die.
“You are not a fellow pro-lifer.”
–I knew I’d get this dumb comment sooner or later. It’s just sooooo foolish, since actually, I’m about as pro-LIFE as they come. I don’t want to KILL. If my life was threatened, I would certainly defend myself. But I’m certainly not into parading around acting like I have the right, or the knowledge, of who should live & who should die. Only God gets to decide that. I am instead into LIFE. That’s rather sickening for those who support the death penalty: Being prolife and anti-death penalty is terribly consistent [and no innocent person ever gets put to death accidentally either, that way]. You may be anti-abortion (and anti-this, and anti-that), and pro-Bible, and pro-killing, and pro-second amendment, and pro-cheap gasoline, and pro-whatever, but there’s nothing pro-LIFE about your posts, which are all about why we should kill various people.
The death penalty and self defence are not seperate issues. In order to protect the inocent from harm, the government does have the duty to make sure murders meet justice.
Secure a free state does mean self defence. why would THE PEOPLE be given the right to bare arms, and then be told they don’t have the right to use them to defend themselvews?
The only value that can be put on human life is life. When you take a life, the only thing you have to pay the debt of the deed is your own life.
Every state in the union has laws that say that not only do you have the right to defend your own Life, put you have the right to defend any inocent life from harm or death at the hands of an evil doer.
That aint parading around mister, that is simple fact.
…and according to your way of thinking, you need to leave America, for She is illegitimate, because we sure popped alot of red coats over the price of a tea bag. I guess tea bags are worth more than the life of a pre-born child? Right?
You cheapen life by saying that murders do not deserve to pay the only price their crime demands. That is the Bible, and that is the law of this land.
except for the pre-born, which by the thinking of planned parenthood ,and you, do not deserve the same protection under the law as a born child.
Your post prove you are not pro life, as you agree with planned parenthood that pre-borns are second class citizens, and their killers have more rights than they do.
As long as false pro-lifers have this mentality, the babies will die.
Asking a question is not the same thing as calling folks names. I ask if you were playing dumb, I never said you were.
The inconsistencies present in the Bible, especially between the two Testaments, are well documented. It is the rational and reasonable conclusion of almost all Christians today that the word of Christ, from whom they derive their religion, and upon which the entirety of Western civilisation is based, preaches love, mercy, and peace.
The God to whom millions of Christians around the world pray is not a God of hatred. Christ did not preach death and retribution. God’s path is not one of destruction, but of love – and not a ‘false love’, either. I am sure I cannot be alone in condemning the proclamation of God’s love as ‘false love’ as a far greater blasphemy than refusing to carry out his allegedly stated punishment for those who work on the Sabbath.
You see, rick ellis, if you were to follow literally every commandment written in the Bible you would follow no path at all. How is one supposed to exact retribution upon one’s enemies whilst, at one and the same time, turning the other cheek? How is one supposed to justify executions whilst following the central commandment: ‘Thou shalt not commit murder’? – a commandment which, when it suits your purposes, rick, you uphold as the basis to your pro-life stance. And what power or deity do you bestow upon yourself that allows you to judge in God’s stead?
I do not recognise the god you worship, rick. Frank’s God of love, mercy, and the sanctity of life is one, however, who I think far more truly represents the central message of the Bible. Frank’s God would not, I believe, condemn someone like Tina who has faced the most horrific suffering to more pain and hatred.
A final note for rick. Please, learn to spell.
Rick:
“You cheapen life by saying that murders do not deserve to pay the only price their crime demands. That is the Bible, and that is the law of this land.”
–No, life is cheapened is when it is taken by humans. Only God has the right to take life.
–”the only price their crime demands?” Once again, your support for this is [as is often the case] Rick Ellis and who else?
–The law of the land? Sorry, no. The Bible is not the law of this land, and it never was. Nor, I add, was it ever intended to be. But then than was my original post, wasn’t it?
I’m sorry, Rick. I could fill a book responding to your increasingly pro-gun, “praise-the-Lord-and-pass-the-ammunition” rants about “popping red coats over tea bags.” But it would be a waste of my time. So we will agree to disagree.
P.S. Laura: You said it better than I ever could have. Thanks.
I never said that the bible is the law of the land. I said the law of the land does give the citizens the right to defend themselves, and any inocent life, includding the use of deadly force.
God has deligated that authority to man in romans chapter 13. I have given reference to scripture and founding documents to support my position, so let us add slander to what you have posted. You slander me by saying that everthing I posted is based souly on my own oppinion. That is simply a lie that you should apologize for.
[just so you won't falsly accuse me of my own oppinion, you are wrong about the nature of God. His justice does require the destruction of the wicked and their works]
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
God’s love is reserved for those who surrender to the Lordship of Christ. Those who reject Christ, have the full wrath of God abiding on them.
Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
…and oh ya, if you notice all references are new testiment.
The message of the gospel is not the false love you project here. The true message is God has a love for the world, but untill one is born again, His full wrath abides on you.
It is one thing for you false love folk to put words in my mouth, but I would be real careful about putting words in God’s mouth.
The experiance of being born again, only comes after the destruction of adam at the cross.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The Love of the gospel can only be released by the destroying violent act of calvary.
Your false love god of mercy with no justice is simply not the God of the Bible.
Love and mercy can only be exstended after justice is fulfilled.
True evangalism is to preach the destroying instrument of the cross. That all mankind were born with the full wieght of God’s wrath hanging over them, and hell death and a grave of eternal torment beneath their feet.
God’s love is a birthday gift, exstended to the penatent, who have lost their life at the cross in exchange for the life of Christ.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
…by the by, those are the words in red in some bibles. The very words of Christ.
It is your false love doctrine that does not line up with the Bible, not what I have posted.
Like I said about rants.
To all posters, it is truly amazing the degree of nastiness, judgmentalism, and warped “theology” masquerading as Christianity on this pro-lfe, pro-Christian site. In a few short months, I have gotten worse rants from so-called “Christians” then I have ever received from pro-choice posters on their own hate sites, with whom I’ve crossed paths more than a few times.
It is apparent (but sad) that many on this site apparently do not wish to end abortion as an end in and of itself. Apparently, some would end it by making this nation a theocracy, governed by their interpretation of the Bible, and to hell — quite literally, and they’ll help you get there — with the likes of Frank. Some would happily do away with abortion simply by killing just about everyone, or at least those who disagree. I can only say that that result is no better than living under the Taliban or the despicable mullahs. I pray and act to end abortion, period, and to do so lawfully, without condemning or namecalling, and certainly without violence, particularly agains prolifers by their breathren. Those folks may be anti-abortion, but they are by no means prolife. Thankfully, folks like Mr. Ellis get short shrift from mainstream Christians in the real world.
To anyone I have offended, I do not apologize, because we have no right in this country not to be offended. I will say that I at least did not offend intentionally.
So I’m off to do some more positive prolife work than argue with hotheads.
Bye for now,
Frank