Reformation Lutheran Church pastor sends fellow minister to jail
Wichita, KS — Ordained minister Henry “Bud” Shaver was arrested with another man after reading from Isaiah 1 during a church service at Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita, where late-term abortionist George R. Tiller is a member.
During the communion service Rev. Shaver stood at a microphone and read a portion of Isaiah’s warning to believers from a scrap of paper. Members of the church tried unsuccessfully to shut off the microphone and grab the Scripture from his hand. Men then forcibly carried Rev. Shaver from the church.
Pastor Thomas Halstrom gave Rev. Shaver’s associate, Joey Cox the communion bread saying, “Receive the body of Christ.” Cox gave the bread back to Halstrom saying that this was not the body of Christ but it represented the bodies of babies killed by abortionist George Tiller.
Cox was removed from the church by four men who repeatedly tried to cover his mouth with their hands even though Cox was not resisting and was trying to voluntarily leave the building.
Rev. Shaver and Cox left the church area and were later stopped at a gas station where they were surrounded by police and arrested at the personal request of Halstrom, whose church is a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Churches In America (ELCA) synod.
The two Christians spent seven hours in jail (See Ticket) on the charge of “rude and indecent behavior in a place of worship.”
“It’s a sad thing when a church considers the reading of God’s Word ‘rude and indecent behavior,’ while embracing abortionist George Tiller, someone who violates that word every day by shedding the innocent blood of babies created in the image of the God they profess to serve. By doing so, they dishonor the name of Christ,” said Operation Rescue President Troy Newman. “Rev. Shaver’s bold proclamation is to be applauded.”
Rev. Shaver is available for interviews at 928-600-9017. (corrected number)
Click here to watch Joey Cox tell what happened.
Matthew 10:16,17,18,19,20, 21,22-”Behold I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves…ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, but when they deliver you, take no thought of how or what you shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour. It is not you that speak, but the Spirit of the Father which speaketh in you. You shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth unto the end shall be saved.”
What an exciting time this is to hear that God is bringing forth His witnesses who profess His Truth with such great courage! Praise God for their testimony! This is the BEST NEWS to happen at Tiller’s “church!” The “Awakening!” People do hear and they do listen to what is said. God has spoken.
May God Bless Pastor Shaver and Mr. Cox for their bold witness in the midst of the Molech worshippers.
Isn’t it ironic ,that they are being charged with “indecent” speech, which just happens to be the Word of God. But of course, the Word of God is anathema to these reprobates.
Reformation Lutheran needs to shut their doors,and stop calling themselves a church, or rename it The Society for the Prevention of Christian thought and practices.
the fact that they ushered them out for merely reading scripture means the scripture made them uncomfortable…it spoke to their hearts somehow because they obviously felt guilt. I pray that they would wake up and repent of their part in Tiller’s killing practices before its too late!
I opened the Bible and was led to this scripture:
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
Reformation Luthern Church obviously has no fear of Dr George Tiller.
Rock on, Pastor Shavor and Joey Cox! Your treasure in Heaven awaits you!
BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO !!! to these two courageous young men for their superb job of witnessing to the truth in Tiller’s own church.
They are true “heroes” for the unborn.
THANK YOU, GUYS !!!!!
I’m sorry, I would like to respectfully present a different take on this, one which will likely generate a firestorm of controversy. Here goes:
There are basically 2 issues here, as I see it. One, that a church service was interrupted. Second, that it was interrupted in the way it was, i.e. by a) a clergyman who “interrupted” to read Scripture; and b) another man (other sources indicate he was 19 years old) who was offered communion and publicly rejected it. Going in turn:
As to the interruption:
1. First, Rev. Shaver was, as I understand it, not “officiating” at the service. He & Mr. Cox were basically members of the public/congregants who attended the services. This situation would be very different if Rev. Cox were officiating. My point is this: This was not a case where the officiant began to say things the congregants disliked & they then turned on him. This is instead a case where the service was hijacked.
2. That said, this is then CONCEPTUALLY no different from any case where a church service is interrupted/hijacked by someone who is not officiating. If I recall, something like this happened at St. Patrick’s Roman Catholic Cathedral in New York City some years back by a gay rights protester. The results were the same — he was grabbed, dragged out and arrested (once again, if I recall correctly). I think the results would be pretty much the same in any church in the U.S.A.
As to the means of interruption:
To me, this leads to some questions: a) Does the fact that Cox was a clergyman make what he did allowable? b) does the fact that he read Scripture make what he did allowable? And c) is what Cox did allowable? In my opinion, no to all:
3. Since when does anyone get a free pass to do #1 & #2 above because (some) church ordains them? Sorry, being a Reverend does not entitle one to do what he did. Moreover, pretty much anyone can get ordained by some church. Catholic priests have occasionally been pedophiles. Al Sharpton was “ordained” as a reverend at approximately age 12. Fred Phelps is a reverend too. The point I make is that simply being a “reverend” doesn’t entitle one to do what one otherwise shouldn’t/can’t, nor does it convey any special “sanctification” which excuses bad acts.
4. I must respectfully comment on Shaver’s appearance. I know, I know, that’s risky. Someone may comment on mine, and it’s just not nice. However, I think it is relevant in the context of what happened. See this through the congregants’ eyes: Shaver does not LOOK like one would expect a clergyperson to look. He dresses a bit differently than, say, Joel Osteen. Posters should ask themselves: If someone looking like Shaver, dressed in a t-shirt, covered in neck tattoos, etc., interrupted THEIR church services (to say nothing of Cox) would the congregants stand around to hear the message? I doubt it. They’d assume a biker/nutcase/God-knows-who was about to desecrate the place, pull a gun, etc., and they acted accordingly. Worse, who’s to say the congregants didn’t really think the guy was about to pull a gun/bomb/etc.? Stranger things have happened. I think their response was about typical.
5. Now we come to the message. Scripture is, what it is. The difficulty is this: Scripture can be selectively quoted to justify many beliefs. Now, in fairness, the passage, says what it says. However, taken in the context of what was happening, I don’t think what he was saying was the issue. I think how he was saying it was the issue. Shaver was disrupting a church service, period. Once again, for all the congregants knew, the guy was about to pull out a gun and begin shooting. The fact that he wound up quoting Scripture instead doesn’t suddenly excuse his disruption. Quoting Scripture as you’re stabbing someone doesn’t make the stabbing “okay”.
6. As to Cox, query whether his comments do in fact disrespect Christ and/or display a rejection of Christ. Either Christ is present in communion, or He isn’t. If you believe He is, you ought to be offended by what Cox did. That that that you are also offended by what Tiller does is immaterial. Rejection of communion is rather ironic to me.
7. Also, if Cox didn’t want to receive, he simply should have not placed himself in a position to have it offered to him. He instead (mis)used the offering of communion to him for the sole purpose of saying his peace, i.e., making a public and/or political point. If you want to make a political point, fine, but don’t (mis)use Christ in communion to do so. As far as I’m concerned, he ought to be absolutely ashamed of himself for that alone.
8. Finally, civil law punishes those who disrupt a church service. We either live under the law (such as it is) or we don’t. The law applies to us, or it doesn’t. The problem is that when someone decides a certain law doesn’t (or shouldn’t) apply to them, anarchy results — anarchy being, for example, the disruption of church services by anyone who wants to stand up and quote scripture. If people excuse Rev. Shaver & Cox, then they ought not be condemning of those who would disrupt their own church services — by quoting any particular scripture the disrupters hold dear. Or those who would disrupt the funerals of servicemen…
9. Finally, Shaver/Cox/Tiller are not in a vacuum (nor is there any proof Tiller was even present to hear). However, we must assume the Church was filed by people who gathered to (apparently sincerely) worship Christ. Their service got disrupted, and that was was offensive/violated civil law/disrespectful. The fact that we don’t like the actions of one of their congregants does not entitle us to disrupt their worship of Christ.
Suffice to say, I do not agree with disrupting a church service merely because I happen to like the fact that Tiller attends services there. I think the line is very, very hazy between doing what Shaver & Cox did, and, say violating the funerals of soldiers. We may dislike what Tiller & Co. do but the bottom line is that Shaver & Cox disrupted a gathering of worshippers. The fact that I dislike what Tiller does doesn’t change that.
Respectfully,
Frank
Frank,
I guesss it boils down to what constitutes “The Church” and what is a “Christian”. This house of “worship” does not meet the biblical definition of either.
Reformation Lutheran has known for at least 16 years ( maybe closer to 20 plus) that a murderer is in their midst. Not only is he a murderer; he’s an elder. These congregants share in Tiller’s sin. Not one person in that “church” can stand before a Holy God and say “we didn’t know”.
In my view, it was God’s mercy, in sending these two men to Reformation Lutheran, to warn this wicked congregation, to repent. Instead, they were met with the same resistance of the Pharisees and Sadducces of Jesus day, which eventually led Him to the cross. The “religious” are always the chief persecutors. Think??? Inquistion.
In regards to the “appearance” of these two men……I would rather hear a wild and wooley John the Baptist type speak the truth, over a false preacher in a three piece suit any day.
Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Stephanie
I have to say that I agree with Frank. I first read this article and felt a little uncomfortable about the whole situation. It just doesn’t seem to benefit the pro-life movement in anyway. In fact, I see it as more of a reason for us to be viewed as “right wing religious terrorists”. Though I admire his desire to bring Tiller to justice, I just don’t think this was the right way.
are you a priest?
Frank, I read your comment down to paragraph 3, and I would like to point out why I believe Pastor Shaver and Joey Cox’s actions were justified and I will share scripture to base my opinion on. If you recall the scripture where Jesus walked into the House of God and found it was being used for sinful purposes:
Mar 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
Mar 11:16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
Mar 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Pastor Shaver’s and Joey Cox did a similar task by interrupting the service and informing everyone of the willful sins that were going on at the church by accepting Dr George Tiller an an honorary member of the church and even allowing him to accept communion in spite of the evil deeds he does. I believe if Jesus were in the flesh walking the earth today, He would have done something even stronger. I believe he would have been crying out with tears running down his face that a House of God has been allowed to rot to such filth.
Now then, your point about the gay rights activist that interrupted a service, the Bible states very plainly that the homosexual lifestyle is an abomination of God.
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Now then, this activist was introducing a sinful message of corruption into the House of God, which is exactly the opposite as trying to weed out the sin from within the church.
I can understand why Pastor Shaver and Joey Cox were arrested, they basically hijacked the alter, but then that’s exactly what Jesus did when he overthrew the tables of the moneychangers. What they did was scriptural. They paid a price for it, but sometimes a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do.
Well said Bill!
Stephanie
Frank does in fact have some very valid points, as does Bill.
I agree with Stephanie. It was high time something like this happened to wake up the congregation AND clergy of Reformation Lutheran Church to what they have been “condoning” for all these years, by allowing Tiller to remain a “member and elder”. Obviously no one in that church has had the guts to do what these men did.
Yes, they did “hijack” a service…but it needed to be done to make a huge statement to all that were present…whether they like it or not, the truth needed to be told. The congregation should be infinitely more offended by who they have in their midst and what he does on a daily basis, and this action by these brave men shames them into facing their complicity in the murder of children because they do nothing to stop this murderer and accept him into their fold.
I highly doubt Christ was the least bit offended by any of this, as even the very “ministers” of this church turn a blind eye to Tiller. I’m sure there isn’t ONE member of Reformation Lutheran Church that ISN’T aware of Tiller and the controversy surrounding him.
Desperate times call for desperate measures.
I still support these 2 men and their actions.
I also thought of that passage Bill. I disagree with Frank, he is affording the respect of Christ’s church to a “church’ that is not of Christ but of the father of lies himself. What they did was entirely appropriate and I think in eternity they will be awarded. I dont think God is saying” oh that wasn’t right to interrupt a service you weren’t officiating to read my words and rebuke those who fellowship with a man who tears my children apart.” I mean really, come on, stop being PC. It is time to stop caring what killers think of us and speak the truth!
Interesting points, all. I do not wish to hijack this board, but to respond to a few of the replies to me:
1. I am not a priest.
2. In reply to Stephanie:
“I guesss it boils down to what constitutes “The Church” and what is a “Christian”. This house of “worship” does not meet the biblical definition of either.”
–Does the Bible in fact “define” either? I do not think so, particularly since, when the Bible was being written, there may or may not have even been “churches” in that sense (as opposed to Synogogues).
–I will confess I find this scary, since it allows subjective decisions about the merits of what is going on inside a church to guide our decisions about whether it constitutes a church or not. Once again — what if I think your church is unbiblical. Can I then disrupt it by shouting some scripture I (subjective) think shows the error of your ways? Can I do so while dressing like a biker (or does doing so in and of itself constitue disrespect to God)? What you seem to be saying is, you will decide what is a church and what isn’t, and who is a Christian and who isn’t.
“These congregants share in Tiller’s sin. Not one person in that “church” can stand before a Holy God and say ‘we didn’t know.’” –and–
–Only God knows the contents of our hearts.
“…to warn this wicked congregation…”
–Have you ever attended services there? Ever spoken to these “wicked congregants.” Why are they “wicked?” Are all Catholics wicked because some priests are pedophiles? With due respect, you are condeming everyone who attends services there simply because you do not like the actions of one of their members.
“In regards to the “appearance” of these two men……I would rather hear a wild and wooley John the Baptist type speak the truth, over a false preacher in a three piece suit any day.”
–There were no guns or bikers in or about 30 A.D. and no cocaine problems either. Shaver looks like a man you’d fear if you met in a dark alley. If someone of identical appearance disrupted your church service, even to shout scripture, you’d assume the worst, and act accordingly.
3. In reply to Bill:
If you wish to be literal, the problem I see with using the Moneychangers story is that the Moneychangers in the temple were not worshipping — they’d turned the temple into the Biblical equivalent of a shopping mall, changing money, “selling doves,” i.e., they were not worshipping there. Here, Shaver & Cox disrupted a worship service in full swing.
What I’m reading from your post can be distilled to, “it’s okay to disrupt a church service IF I INTERPRET THE BIBLE TO SAY THAT WHAT IS GOING ON WITHIN IS NOT WORSHIP.” Under that analogy, basically any disruption of a church service if okay if the disrupter thinks the worshippers are doing something “unchristian,” “unbiblical,” “nonworshipping,” etc. Does that include disrupting a Catholic Mass when the priest mentions souls in purgatory or anything else a Protestant thinks is unscriptural?
Basically, what you’re also arguing is situational ethics: What Shaver & Cox did was okay, but the gay rights guy wasn’t. Ultimately, as to all who defend Shaver & Cox, to me it boils down to this, as Reese alluded to: Shouldn’t there be some events/actions which one just shouldn’t do, period? Leaving aside the Bible — which can be used to justify just about anything — isn’t there some moral imperative that says, “don’t disrupt a church service?” Doing so is bad, in and of itself, and ultimately (as Reese says) does more harm than good? To use my Joel Osteen example again, I may not agree theologically with everything Joel Osteen says, but isn’t it enough that he and his congregants are worshipping Christ, such that I would decline to disrupt their doing so?
But anyway, good comments, all. Thanks.
Frank
Babies are being killed by Tiller and NOONE IS LISTENING, and NOONE SEEMS TO CARE! It is TIME for something “radical ” to be done! Tiller’s church is allowing him to take part in communion, knowing full well he is a murderer only because he pays them! When Jesus went into the temple and chased out those who were using the temple for vice, HE WAS ANGRY! I admire the courage of what these men have done. The Reformation church needs their service interrupted by one who will tell the truth to all the congregation! Everything Tiller does needs to be made public! The boundaries which society has put upon people is RESPONSIBLE FOR ABORTION! IF GOOD PEOPLE WOULD COME OUT OF THEIR LITTLE PROTECTIVE SHELLS AND TAKE A LOOK AT ABORTION FOR WHAT IT IS,
AND SPEAK OUT, BABIES WOULD NOT HAVE TO DIE SUCH GRUESOME DEATHS! I AM TIRED OF SELF-CENTERED, COWARDLY PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GO ABOUT THEIR COMFORTABLE LIVES AND WHO WORRY MORE ABOUT WHAT OTHERS MAY THINK! When Jesus was upon this earth, He did not choose the “easy” path, nor did He follow “popular” beliefs. The disciples which He chose did not wear suits and have their hair cut at the local salon. I am sure none of them would have been “deemed” suitable to be on “religious” TV.
When God chooses those to serve Him, He looks at their heart. The main thing I am glad for, is TILLER”S CONGREGATION GOT THE “POINT!” These men slipped in and expressed exactly what these “blinded Christians” needed to hear! Now we need to support them and thank them for “stepping” out of the box to think and act differently and according to what God has led them to do! I WISH I COULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING, I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE BEEN THERE TO SEE THEIR FACES! BABIES ARE BEING KILLED AROUND THE WORLD ON A DAILY BASIS AND NOONE IS SAYING ANYTHING! WE GO TO CHURCH, WE MEET FOR SOCIAL GATHERINGS, WE CALL OURSELVES CHRISTIANS, YET WE IGNORE REALITY! BY NOT DOING SOMETHING WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE! Acts 28:27 For the heart of the people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull from of hearing, and THEIR EYES HAVE THEY CLOSED LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, and UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM!”
If I were a member of Tiller’s church, I would definitely confront him! I would not want to shake the hand of a man who had his hands on an unborn baby and killed him. What are these people thinking? If they are that blind to what Tiller is doing, someone needed to tell them! Now they have no excuse for not questioning him about his illegal acts. If they continue to ignore the situation, they are just as guilty as he is! Shame on all of the people who know this pathetic man and don’t say anything! I am proud of the 2 men who were brave enough to speak out! Actually, the picture of Mr. Shaver denotes a nice looking guy, and I bet he waited for an opportunity to offer his comments, as often an invitation is given to come forward during a service to testitfy. HE WAS A MESSENGER OF GOD SPEAKING OF THE EVIL IN THEIR CHURCH AND THE DIDN’T LIKE IT!
THE BREAD OFFERED WAS NOT THE BODY OF CHRIST, BUT WAS THE BODIES OF THE BABIES OFFERED AS A SACRIFICE TO THE CHURCH. TILLER’S BLOOD MONEY SUPPORTS THE CHURCH! The blood money of his aborted babies keeps them sitting in comforable pews, plush carpet, social events, and prestige’ for being there. They all are GUILTY and they know it!
“Mothers Against Abortion”
Frank,
The Bible states that we are not to judge according to appearance but according to righteous judgment. Christians who read and know God’s Word, can make judgments. Scripture also states we can know a tree, whether good or bad, according to it’s fruit. A good tree doesn’t produce bad fruit and a bad tree doesn’t produce good fruit ( see Mt. 7)
A person’s actions ( and inactions) does determine what’s really in their hearts. In the matter of Reformation Lutheran, it’s become abundantly clear, that those in attendance , are quite content to have a murderer in their midst. Those who oppose what Tiller’s does, are long gone.
2 Corinthians chapter six, beginning in verse 14:
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
First Corinthians chapter five is also very clear that we are to judge those who are in the church, those without God will judge.
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Reformation Lutheran refuses to “put away” this wicked person. Those in that congregation share in Tiller’s sin.
In regards to church, the early church met in homes. The biblical definition of a church ( greek) is ekklesia ” a calling out” . And a Christian is a follower of Christ, one who keep His commandments. All those who have been called out and are following Christ’s commands are members of His church. The people are “the Church” not a building.
“Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says “I know Him” and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.” I John 2:3-5
Yep, I knew I’d start a firestorm. That’s okay. All of us should have the courage of our convictions.
Conceptually, I too have difficulties with the way Tiller’s brethren at the church seems to be handling Tiller’s presence, provided they are aware of him and what he does (which seems hard to miss). I simply think there are much much better ways to deal with the situation than standing up and disrupting a church service. I actually would not be unwelcoming of any who came to any church for guidance, etc., but I would confess doubts about Tiller’s sincerity, i.e., does he want to say he belongs to some church, any church, merely as a marketing ploy?
I have been down the road many, many times (on this board, no less) with those who quote Scripture. I respond now as I sometimes do then: Scripture can be selectively quoted to justify whatever act suits the quoter. I also note that this board is read by many (myself included) who do not find Scripure alone to be the sole source of authority on this or any other subject (particularly since it does not purport to be, but that’s another discussion…).
So we’ll agree to disagree. At least this time no one suggested I should be killed, or was a heretic, etc.
Frank
>Here, Shaver & Cox disrupted a
>worship service in full swing.
The House of God is to worship God. If a church is accepting an unrepentive murderer as a church elder, then who is it they are worshiping? Certainly not God. They may think they are, but they are only perverting the name of God and this needs to be pointed out time and time again.
>What I’m reading from your post can
>be distilled to, “it’s okay to disrupt a
>church service IF I INTERPRET THE
>BIBLE TO SAY THAT WHAT IS GOING
>ON WITHIN IS NOT WORSHIP.”
Think about what exactly happened. Pastor Shaver who is an ordained minister, stepped to the podium during communion and started reading directly from the Bible. It’s not like he was interjecting his thoughts or his interpretations. He simply read from the Bible. People were offended by the word of God and had him removed. This makes a tough argument that they disrupted the service at all.
>What Shaver & Cox did was okay,
>but the gay rights guy wasn’t.
Exactly! Because the gay rights activist is interjecting an opinion that goes totally against the Bible’s teachings saying this is allright. Paster Shaver simply read directly from the Bible, nothing more nothing less.
Heck, at the church I used to attend, we had sessions where people would stand and read from the Bible a verse or two. Sure, it was an invited event by the pastor, but who does the church belong to, the pastor or God. When a church denies a person the priviledge of standing and reading directly from the Bible when that person may feel encouraged or led to do so, this is an insult to God in my honest opinion.
>isn’t there some moral imperative
>that says, “don’t disrupt a church
>service?”
It’s unfathomable to me as to how reading from the Bible can be interpreted as disrupting a church service.
You know this whole event reminds me of the book of Matthew:
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
>Yep, I knew I’d start a firestorm.
I don’t see a firestorm. Your comments are welcome. I do not believe in preaching with a cliched fist. I believe this is what people with weak arguments do in order to imtimidate their adversary. I believe that in the end, the truth always prevails.
I think what it comes down to is, what is God’s intent? God’s intent is to save the souls of man. This “church” Tiller belongs to…is it saving the souls of man? Is it trying to turn Tiller from his path to hell, or merely patting him on the back and allowing him to partake of Christ’s table without any thought to the evil he does each day. Perhaps the reading of scripture will convict some of these “wicked ” congregants hearts and maybe even Tiller’s heart will be softened! Romans 10:17 says “faith comes by HEARING and HEARING by the WORD OF GOD” God will bless HIS words in the hearts of those “wicked ” congregants.
Frank said:
“I also note that this board is read by many (myself included) who do not find Scripure alone to be the sole source of authority on this or any other subject (particularly since it does not purport to be, but that’s another discussion…).”
Frank this is the major flaw in your logic. Since you don’t believe God’s Word to be the sole source of authority, you will find it very difficult to properly debate this matter. Your applying your intellect and logic over the Word of God.
The Word of God is the final authority of all matters pertaining to life and godliness. It’s the Christian’s road map. It’s our instruction manual. Every word is God- breathed, inspired and directed by the Holy Spirit.
Had Elijah been present at Tiller’s church, I can assure you that there would have been more action taken than scripture reading. But of course, that’s another topic of discussion.
Sola Scriptura ( The Word of God alone), Sola Fide ( by faith alone), Sola Christus ( By Christ Alone), Sola Gratia ( By Grace Alone) Sola Deo Gloria ( God Alone)
Dr. Tiller and Reformation Luthern Church doesn’t believe abortion is murder.
King James:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
King James 1611:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the bellie, I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the wombe, I sanctified thee, and I ordeined thee a Prophet vnto the nations.
American Standard:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
Amplified:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew [and] approved of you [as My chosen instrument], and before you were born I separated and set you apart, consecrating you; [and] I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. [Exod. 33:12; Isa. 49:1, 5; Rom. 8:29.]
Douay-Rheims
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.
Basic English:
Jer 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.
What part of that do you not understand, Tiller the Killer?
Bill,
Maybe the readers should proceed now to Jeremiah chapter 7? This basically sums up what America and the American church has become.
The question beckons…..will we then receive the same fate as Israel.
IMHO, yes. A day of reckoning is coming. Not even Tiller and all his cronies will be able to escape.
Stephanie
Six things which the Lord hates-
1. A Proud Look
2. A Lying Tongue.
3, HANDS THAT SHED INNOCENT BLOOD
4. Heart that deviseth wicked imaginations.
5. Feet that are swift to run to mischief.
6. A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth
discord among brethern.
God is sad because of our sins. The sin of abortion, the SHEDDING OF INNOCENT BLOOD causes Christians to be hurt and angry. Think of the tears our Lord sheds for these babies. He hears their cries and feels their pain. He is not just sitting up there as a silent, intellectual observer. He loves us! Our sins are what killed Jesus. Not the cross. The weight of the sins of the world. Sometimes at night, I can’t sleep when I think of the pain these babies go through at the hands of Tiller and other abortionists. God is aware of every babie’s cry of distress….he feels the pain of each baby which is aborted. I am angry for the unnecessary killing of all of these children. Think how hurt and angry God feels. ONE DAY HIS WRATH WILL COME DOWN UPON US! When God asks each one of us why we let these babies die: (and He will) will we have to say, “Well, I didn’t want to make a social blunder by speaking out at the wrong time. I though it should go through the “proper channels.” (We see the proper channels has not worked, if you have observed the political corruption in Kansas which protects Tiller.) The Bible cannot be twisted when it says, “Thou shall not kill!” What part of this don”t we understand?
Thank you all for your responses. We will just have to disagree over some of these items.
I’d respectfully add to Stephanie that when you say, “Since you don’t believe God’s Word to be the sole source of authority, you will find it very difficult to properly debate this matter. Your applying your intellect and logic over the Word of God…”, I’d note that sola scriptura is itself unbiblical. If you wish to assert otherwise, I’d respectfully ask you to prove from the Bible that the Bible is the only rule of faith. Then, you’ll have to tell how you know which books belong in the Bible in the first place. You’ll also have to prove that you have the authority to interpret the Bible (bothas to meaning and syntax) and that your interpretations will always be accurate.
But I’m getting way, way off topic. That’s for another forum, not this one. I share all of your very strong feelings about America’s number 1 abortionist (a title not worth having). About that we all can agree.
“[T]he Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth” (2 Tim. 2:24-25).
Hopefully I have been kindly to all. Thanks for you doing the same.
Regards,
Frank
>If you wish to assert otherwise, I’d
>respectfully ask you to prove from
>the Bible that the Bible is the only
>rule of faith.
Of course the keyword “prove” is a variable standard that goes up as the evidence is presented so as to assure unatainability. Been there, done that.
>Then, you’ll have to tell how you
>know which books belong in the
>Bible in the first place.
That’s what King James did. Out of all the scriptural doctrines, he chose under the authorization of others, which doctrines to include in the 1611 King James Bible. That task has already been accompished.
>You’ll also have to prove that you
>have the authority to interpret the
>Bible (bothas to meaning and syntax)
>and that your interpretations will
>always be accurate.
There’s that keyword “prove” again. That’s why you cross-reference between Bible versions, and the Amplified Bible works very well because it gives cross-reference scriptures.
>But I’m getting way, way off topic.
No, this is fun! Please continue.
>“[T]he Lord’s servant must not be
>quarrelsome but kindly to every one,
>an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting
>his opponents with gentleness. God
>may perhaps grant that they will
>repent and come to know the truth”
>(2 Tim. 2:24-25).
King James:
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
I just love KJ 1611:
2Ti 2:24 And the seruant of the Lord must not striue: but bee gentle vnto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekenesse instructing those that oppose themselues, if God peraduenture will giue them repentance to the acknowledging of the trueth.
American Standard:
2Ti 2:24 And the Lord’s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
2Ti 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
Douay-Rheims
2Ti 2:24 But the servant of the Lord must not wrangle: but be mild toward all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 With modesty admonishing them that resist the truth: if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth;
Amplified:
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome (fighting and contending). Instead, he must be kindly to everyone and mild-tempered [preserving the bond of peace]; he must be a skilled and suitable teacher, patient and forbearing and willing to suffer wrong.
2Ti 2:25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],
Basic English:
2Ti 2:24 For it is not right for the Lord’s servant to make trouble, but he is to be gentle to all, ready in teaching, putting up with wrong,
2Ti 2:25 Gently guiding those who go against the teaching; if by chance God may give them a change of heart and true knowledge,
Frank, again…the verse I quoted above…faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. FAITH cannot be proved. Thats what makes it FAITH. The Bible says God’s word is established forever. in the end everything else will pass away, but God’s word is true and shall remain. that is why you must base your descisions in life on it’s wisdom.
Psalms 119:105 Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.
God’s word shows us the way! Its shows us God’s character and what God expects from us!
Matthew 15:8, 9 –the pharisees came to Jesus to trip him up with their questions and accusations. Christ said likened the pharisees to the religious hypocrites of Isaiah’s time saying ” This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
When I read this in devotions I thought of Tiller’s church! Alayna said it so eloquently…what will we say to God when HE asks us why we didn’t speak out against the killing of innocent children? Because we didn’t want to offend a “church” that sickened God with their hypocritical worship? Its not like Tiller just GOES to church…we ALL need church! He PARTAKES of COMMUNION, the body and blood of Christ! The CHURCH he attends ALLOWS this, thus they condone his sin.
Look, I grew up Baptist (am now Catholic). If the Pastor knew, or if my parents knew I had unconfessed sin in my life ( ex: my mom knew I mouthed back to her that afternoon and didn’t apologize) I was not ALLOWED to take communion. Those congregants are not helping Tiller’s soul any by allowing him to “play” church while his heart remains spiritually dead.
>Frank, again…the verse I quoted above…
>faith comes by hearing and hearing by
>the word of God. FAITH cannot be proved.
>Thats what makes it FAITH. The Bible says
>God’s word is established forever. in the
>end everything else will pass away, but
>God’s word is true and shall remain. that
>is why you must base your descisions in
>life on it’s wisdom.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith. Not knowledge, faith.
Pastor Shaver’s reading from Isaiah:
King James:
(Isa 1:12) When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample my courts?
(Isa 1:13) Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; new moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies, – I cannot away with iniquity and the solemn meeting.
(Isa 1:14) Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth; they are a trouble unto me; I am weary of bearing them.
(Isa 1:15) And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
(Isa 1:16) Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
(Isa 1:17) learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Douay-Rheims :
Isa 1:12 When you came to appear before me, who required these things at your hands, that you should walk in my courts?
Isa 1:13 Offer sacrifice no more in vain: incense is an abomination to me. The new moons, and the sabbaths and other festivals I will not abide, your assemblies are wicked.
Isa 1:14 My soul hateth your new moons, and your solemnities: they are become troublesome to me, I am weary of bearing them.
Isa 1:15 And when you stretch forth your hands, I will turn away my eyes from you: and when you multiply prayer, I will not hear: for your hands are full of blood.
Isa 1:16 Wash yourselves, be clean, take away the evil of your devices from my eyes, cease to do perversely,
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well: seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge for the fatherless, defend the widow.
American Standard:
Isa 1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample my courts?
Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; new moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies, – I cannot away with iniquity and the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth; they are a trouble unto me; I am weary of bearing them.
Isa 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Amplified:
Isa 1:12 When you come to appear before Me, who requires of you that your [unholy feet] trample My courts?
Isa 1:13 Bring no more offerings of vanity (emptiness, falsity, vainglory, and futility); [your hollow offering of] incense is an abomination to Me; the New Moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot endure–[it is] iniquity and profanation, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your New Moon festivals and your [hypocritical] appointed feasts My soul hates. They are an oppressive burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them.
Isa 1:15 And when you spread forth your hands [in prayer, imploring help], I will hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not hear. Your hands are full of blood!
Isa 1:16 Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes! Cease to do evil,
Isa 1:17 Learn to do right! Seek justice, relieve the oppressed, and correct the oppressor. Defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Basic English:
Isa 1:12 At whose request do you come before me, making my house unclean with your feet?
Isa 1:13 Give me no more false offerings; the smoke of burning flesh is disgusting to me, so are your new moons and Sabbaths and your holy meetings.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your regular feasts are a grief to my soul: they are a weight in my spirit; I am crushed under them.
Isa 1:15 And when your hands are stretched out to me, my eyes will be turned away from you: even though you go on making prayers, I will not give ear: your hands are full of blood.
Isa 1:16 Be washed, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before my eyes; let there be an end of sinning;
Isa 1:17 Take pleasure in well-doing; let your ways be upright, keep down the cruel, give a right decision for the child who has no father, see to the cause of the widow.
It is our responsibility as Christians to stop our brothers from going down the wrong path, even if it means causing them discomfort. We also have an even stronger responsibility to stop those who are purposely misleading others. Check 2Timothy y’all! “….for the time will come when they, having itching ears will turn from sound doctrine, and hire teachers to suit thier own likeing.”….”…..do the work of an evangelist….”. Some of those passeges deal with being firm in one’s ministry, and so on. I have no issue with what was done. We should never stand by and watch blaspheming in a place of “worship”……it was “The Awakening” ya’ll! Wake up you people of Tiller’s church, you know your hands are red with the blood of these babies. I’d love to visit that church, I think they need a real old southern Gospel Get the Holy Ghost on and go to the alter and get right with Jesus revival! Can I get an Amen?!!!!! Don’t make me come up there ya’ll! Lori
To whom it may concern,
My name is Henry (Bud) Shaver; I went to Wichita with a group called Survivors, a pro life organization, to pray outside George Tillers’ Abortion clinic. We were there Saturday, Sunday, and Monday.
If you are not familiar with George Tiller, he brags about being responsible for the most Second and Third trimester deaths by a procedure he developed called the MOLD procedure. What he does in this procedure is: he injects the baby’s heart which kills the baby. Then he dilates the woman’s cervix and then causes the mother to deliver the now dead baby. He has killed over 65,000 babies by this procedure.
While we were outside of the clinic praying it was brought to my attention that George Tiller is a prominent member of The Reformed Lutheran Church. I was shocked not only did this man attend church, but his congregation fully supported him. I decided to go to this church and address the congregation about their tolerance of this man’s lifestyle. Paul confronted the Church in Corinth in 1 Corinthians 5 about a wicked man that they tolerated. Paul rebuked them and said “remove that wicked man from among you, turn him over to Satan so that he may stop doing what he’s doing”.
I attended the church on Sunday and at an appropriate time; I walked up to the pulpit and started reading from Isaiah 1:15-17. Their Reverend and four others forcibly removed me. I did not resist, however, I did continue to read from Isaiah. The Reverend had me arrested on the charges of “Disrupting a worship service with rude and indecent behavior.” Since when is reading from scripture considered “rude and indecent”? I guess it is in that church. They were upset by me being there but they were perfectly OK with George Tiller being there (George was there in the audience).
I realize it may not be politically correct to confront people but it is biblically correct. Matthew 18:17. If you think about it for a moment in Isaiah 1:15-17 Isaiah is confronting an assembly, they weren’t very gracious to him. Imagine how people responded when word got around in his day. Well we may not have to imagine, listen to how people are responding today. Put yourself in the audience, how you have responded now is pretty much how you would have responded then. Don’t deceive yourselves.
I have grown up in the Church my whole life. Growing up in the Church I never heard anything on abortion and our need to speak out against it. I am preaching this Sunday (by invitation this time) at a church in Flagstaff Arizona specifically about Abortion. It is time for us to educate our people.
The enemy, including all the pro-choice advocates, would love nothing better than for us within the pro-life movement to attack each other and each pro-life technique. They would love us to be divided but we must not let that happen! We must collectively and with unity stand up and speak out, pray like we have never prayed before. We will not be silent any more!
Every 24 seconds a baby is killed by abortion in America.
Over 3,000 babies died today in America, because their mother killed them by abortion.
There is one main reason that the abortion clinic is in our City. We the Church have given them permission to be here. We have said nothing. We have been apathetic. It is time for us to realize and call abortion what it is… It is the violent murder of an innocent child.
I have sat silent for far too long. The Church has sat silent for far too long. We must confess that we haven’t done enough in the past. We must all Repent of this.
Today we will do something, anything.
Thanks Reverend Shaver! I kinda saw Isaiah 1: 12-14 in there also in the first paragraph of your scrap of paper, that’s why i qouted it from my Bible versions. I’m glad I nailed 15-17 though.
I would like to attend your church service if I knew where it was. I live in Phoenix. If it’s not too early in the morning I could make it. If you could leave a message for me at bill_gamelson@yahoo.com and let me know the address, my GPS could do the rest.
God belss you for what you do!
AMEN!!!!!
I grew up in church, my father was a deacon. I attended a private Christian school from kindergarten to 12th grade when I graduated. I went to a Christian college. I can’t EVER remember the sin of abortion being preached on or condemned from the pulpit. i agree totally with Rev. Shaver! a girl a little younger than me that also grew up going to this christian school started doing drugs and having sex (when she was in her 20’s) and got pregnant. convinced that the drugs had deformed her baby and afraid to tell her parents that she was pregnant she had an abortion. this is a supposedly born-again Christian! If she could succumb to Satan’s lies, then anyone can! we must educate our children early so that they don’t make these same mistakes when they’re older. we must speak out for our unborn brothers and sisters! Maybe God will strike Tiller’s heart with his words…no one is out of the reach of God’s mercy. I pray for Tiller every day. Its not too late for him!
Bud,
I commend you for your boldness, and may the Lord’s blessings rest upon you.
Stephanie
Rev. Shaver, although I admire your zeal and respect your goal, I’d like to respectfully point out a few items:
1. The City Code provides as follows:
“Every person…who at any time interrupts or molests any religious society…when meeting or met together for the purpose of worship…disquiets or disturbs any congregation…BY MAKING A NOISE, OR by rude and indecent behavior…”
The statute is disjunctive. One can disrupt worship by making a noise — regardless of what “noise” is being made. Conversely, one can be “rude and indecent” silently or very softly — but it’s “disruptive” just the same.
It seems to me that it is not entirely intellectually honest to ask, “since when is reading from scripture considered “rude and indecent”? Instead, it appears the violation came from “making noise,” and/or interrupting the service itself, rather than by being “rude and indecent.”
2. It is not clear, but I am curious: Do you think there is ever a WRONG time to read scripture? Your position in this respect seems to be that the “message,” i.e. Scripture, is always allowable, regardless of the time and place, merely because it “is” Scripture, i.e., the fact that it is scripture makes it allowable to say it whenever you wish whether you are welcome to do so or not. If there is a “wrong” time to read scripture, when is that time?
3. I agree that the stance of Tiller’s church is EXTREMELY disconcerting, if not absolutely offensive to Jesus. Willful blindness and/or absolving oneself of all moral decisions is not a good thing. However, I cannot help but ask a followup question to any who think it is “acceptable” to stand up and disrupt a church service: What interruptions are allowable and which aren’t? The bottom line is that if some interruptions ARE allowable, then who decides which are and which aren’t? The Bible? Which verison? Which particular pastor’s interpretation of which particular passasge therein, given the wide variety of interpretations of the Bible and sects of Christianity? Can you interrupt the Catholic Mass I attend and start shouting scripture if you deem my actions unbiblical? If so, why? If not, why not?
It seems to me that the City Code codifies what all Christians ought to be able to figure out without much teaching: Interrupting a church service is a bad thing — period. If the response is, “I’m going to do it anyway to teach these people the truth, make them repent, etc.,” people are going to take steps to stop such behavior, if only because in this sick world many people who claim to “know the truth” may be on drugs, whacked out of their mind, etc., and/or pose a threat to everyone else.
I agree with you that churches should do more to oppose abortion. However, one well-known “pro-life” firebrand had the (not-so-) bright idea to protest abortion at a Catholic Church because (as I understand it) he decided that particular church wasn’t doing enough to end abortion. We will leave aside the fact that the Catholic Church is probably the single greatest advocate for unborn in human history. I respectfully suggest that mainstream Christians are only going to see such conduct as right-wing insanity, if not terrorism. People who oppose disruptions of church services aren’t being “politically correct,” so much as they are being “mainstream,” by not tolerating such conduct, and by passing civil laws to prevent it.
I appreciate your sincerity (although I oppose your means). I pray you continue to share the Gospel with the world and are safe doing so.
Regards,
Frank
Frank,
I know you don’t accept God’s Word has the final authority, but please do consider these verses from Acts 5:
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
17 ¶ Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,)and were filled with indignation,
18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.
19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.
21 And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.
22 But when the officers came, and found them not in the prison, they returned, and told,
23 Saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within.
24 Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow.
25 Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people.
26 ¶ Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Frank, Jesus was in continual violation of man’s laws, as were the prophets and the disciples. Whenever there was a conflict between the two, God’s Word always trumped. I’m not advocating rebellion or law breaking, but every Christian has a duty FIRST to God, then to man. One of the saddest verses in all of Scripture is when the chief priests made this statement: ” We have no king but Caesar!” John 19:15b How sad……they rejected the King of Kings over a mortal man. Even the “religious” paid more homage to an earthly ruler than the Son of Man.
And lastly:
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God maybe complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Enough said…..
How many babies must die a gruesome, painful death while we are being “politically correct,” and making our way through the “red tape” of politics to end abortion? The abortionists are “laughing in our face,” as well as the “face of God.” I am sure if you were the baby bearing the brunt of his knife, you would feel HE WAS THE “TERRORIST!” To intellectualize abortion is the way we “distance ” ourselves from the reality. We don’t want to know. We don’t want to feel the pain. The harshness, the brutality, the blood, the cries of the unborn is a profound sadness which we don’t want to include into our daily thoughts! We are too busy with maintaining our “peaceful satisfying lives,” we don’t want the interruption. It is too “disconcerting!” It is much easier to follow Emily Post’s or Dear Abby’s advice to “Go through the proper channels.” And why would anyone want to RISK their life or their “business or personal reputation” to speak out in a way that would get attention? No, “nice citizens” work behind “closed doors.” They give a little money now and then, or donate some baby clothes to an organization and think they have done their job. THIS IS WHY WE HAVE ABORTION TODAY! THE CHRISTIANS ARE AFRAID TO SAY ANY THING WHICH MAY ROCK THE BOAT! WE SIT AROUND AND WAIT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING GO THROUGH THE “PROPER CHANNELS.”>>>but GUESS WHAT!!!THE POLITICIANS IN KANSAS ARE CORRUPTLY “PROTECTING” TILLER! TILLER DOESN”T GET IT! HE THINKS HE IS ABOVE THE LAW!!!!!!
So much for “political correctness!” These people are in this for the money which abortion provides them! Tiller has escaped prosecution for killing full term babies. How much longer must this go on? Shall we just WHISPER TO MR. TILLER, “PLEASE DON”T MUTILATE ANY MORE INNOCENT BABIES TO PUT MONEY IN YOUR POCKET. Shall we just WHISPER TO ATTORNEY GENERAL MORRISON, “NOW THAT’S NOT NICE TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY.” I know I am angry and sickened by abortion. I feel it in my heart and soul. The pain of these babies should weigh upon all of our hearts! I know our Lord is displeased with how we have handled this situation. I am thankful that Rev. “Bud” Shaver has taken upon himself this cross to bear and with great courage declared himself a “man of God.!” This is how I see it. I myself have felt for a long time that “SOMEONE” needed to confront George Tiller in his own church with his own people! FINALLY! GOD! Jesus certainly did not follow “proper protocol” when He was on this earth! That’s why He was crucified!
Acts 4:31 ” And when they had prayed, the place was SHAKEN where they were assembled together: and they were ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, AND THEY SPOKE THE WORD OF GOD WITH BOLDNESS.
Acts 4:32″ And the MULTITUDE OF THEM THAT BELIEVED WERE OF ONE HEART AND OF ONE SOUL.”
Frank,
I would agree with you Pastor shaver broke the law. So did rosa parks; With any great stand you must count the cost. Bud shaver I hope you counted the cost. I would rather serve time in the wichita jail then any time in Tillers estate. This proverbs its sunday school stuff.
Do i think hijacking the serve was okay?
I think God isnt concerned about the reading of the word or the intruption. What i understand from the word of God about Gods Character is that he sometimes send His people into churchs and communitys to give the “word of the Lord” and it hurts sometimes. So maybe it was okay, for the sake of the body of christ
The Christian walk isnt bound in legalism.
Stephanie,
I love your zeal!
remember so soil isnt ready for the seed yet it needs turned and prepared. Nice stand.
To the Body of Christ!!
the bible tells us about Blood Guilt
Tillers murders are on our hands.
by the blood that speaks louder than the blood of able,
Rodger
George Tiller is an abomination. Apparently, he has a different doctors oath than what we all know. His oath is to kill & destroy. The more the merrier. Frank, I think all of us know that what these two gentlemen did was probably inappropriate, however, given what’s at stake, that being our future, I tip my hat to them for taking action. If this country would rise up & wake up to the atrocities occuring dailey at Tiller’s abortion mill, Lord knows we could shut it down. History has it civil disobiedence can & does work. Every morning delivering my papers I pray the Hail Mary for the conversion of one George Tiller. I refuse to call Tiller a doctor. He truly is a killer. Let’s all say a few Hail Mary’s for the conversion of George Tiller. Best wishes. Bob
From what I read in the Word, it says “If my people, who are called by My Name, will humble themselves and pray, I will hear and heal their land.
Yes, the blood of so many cry from the ground of Wichita and other places, but if we truly do things God’s way, we ourselves will humble before a powerful, wonderful God and cry out – He hears and answers and will heal our land.
I also do not know if Rev. Shaver was sent by God to give warning. If so, it would not matter what any of us think as he must do as God leads.
If you look back at history, the year Wichita put up their keeper of the plains, BTK started killing, Tiller started his killing, and deaths increased over Wichita. From what I read now, sounds like many are finally praying, as they caught BTK, keeper came down (went back up facing the East this time) and Tiller is now in jail.
C Wood
Frank,
I just came across this thread today and I don’t know if you will ever see this, but I think this is a powerful illustration. But first let me say, ” Me thinks you have submitted more than a few legal briefs and haven given more than a few closing arguments.” That being said, let’s take a look at the overwhelming impact of civil disobedience. I don’t know if you have read “The Hand of God” by former abortionist,Bernard Nathanson, M.D., but he gives a first hand account of how the civil disobedience of members of Operation Rescue played a defining role in his conversion from atheism to christianity.
(Page 191):
Then I attended an action by Operation Rescue against Planned Parenthood in New York City in 1989. I was planning an article to be published in an ethics journal on the moral and ethical aspects of such demonstrations. Were they legitimate protests or domestic terrorism–that is, the denial of constitutionally based rights to pregnant women?
The morning of the Rescue was bitterly cold. I joined the legion, twelve hundred demonstrators, at their rendevous in the west forties in Manhattan and proceeded with them by subway and foot to the clinic on Second Ave. and Twenty-fourth Street. They sat themselves down in rows in front of the clinic, effectively blocking entrances to and exits from the abortion clinic. They began to sing hymns softly, joining hands and swaying from the waist, I circulated on the periphery at first, obeserving the faces, interviewing some of the participants, making notes furiously: It was only then that I apprehended the exaltation, the pure love on the faces of that shivering mass of people, surrounded as they were by hundreds of New York City policemen.
They prayed, they supported and encouraged each other, they sang hymns of joy, and they constantly reminded each other of the absolute prohibition against violence. It was, I suppose, the sheer intensity of the love and prayer that astonished me. They prayed for the unborn babies, for the confused and frightened pregnant women, and for the doctors and nurses in the clinic. They even prayed for the police and the media who were covering the event. They prayed for each other, but never for themselves. And I wondered: HOW CAN THESE PEOPLE GIVE OF THEMSELVES FOR A CONSTITUENCY THAT IS (AND ALWAYS WILL BE) MUTE, INVISIBLE, AND UNABLE TO THANK THEM?
Page (193)
Now, I had not been immune to the religious fervor of the pro-life movement. I had been aware in the early and mid-eighties that a great many of the Catholics and Protestants in the ranks had prayed for me, were praying for me, and I was not unmoved as time went on. But, it was not until I saw the spirit put to the test on those bitterly cold demonstration mornings, with pro-choicers hurling the most fulsome epithets at them, the police surrounding them, the media openly unsympathetic to their cause, the federal judiciary fining and jailing them, and municipal officials threatening them–all through it they sat smiling, quietly praying, singing, confident and righteous of their cause and inerradicably persuaded of their ultimate triumph–that I began seriously to question what indescribable Force generated them to this activity. Why, too, was I there?
What had led me to this time and place? Was it the same Force that allowed them to sit serene and unafraid at the epicenter of legal, physical, ethical, and moral chaos?
AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY ENTIRE LIFE, I began to entertain seriously the notion of God–a god who problematically had led me through the proverbial circles of hell, only to show me the way to redemption and mercy through His grace.
So, Frank, those people were engaged in illegal conduct and their conduct certainly was “rude & inappropriate”. After all they were blocking the doors of a perfectly legitimate business, frightening women, frustrating employees, and making people down right mad, but they also helped to save a soul by their obedience to God. God gives everyone, individually and collectively, a “FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS” place in their lives. That was Operation Rescue’s strategy for that time and who are we to say that this was not Rev. Shaver’s and Mr. Cox’ time. Just as OR’s “inappropriate” behavior may not have appealed to the masses, there is no denying the powerful impact it has had on this country. Countless souls and babies have been saved through their efforts. You know when the woman caught in adultery was about to be stoned, Jesus stepped in to stop a perfectly legal pratice. Not only did he admonish the stoners and the stonee, but he changed lives that day. There is no doubt in my mind that God planted a seed in someone in the congregation’s heart to be FOR Him and the unborn on the day of Rev. Shaver’s admonishment. By the way, I thought, as christians, we aren’t supposed to bring each other to court. I leave you with this thought…Evil flourishes when good men do nothing.. Thanks for your time.
Tiller has his demonic hands in every pocket in the country. His going to church is another method of delighting the devil. The devil dances in this church, and the spiritual is a mockery. If he wanted salvation, that would be another story… perhaps he does? The demon is bloated by his appearance and sheeple members embracing his presence. Totally intolerable! What a sick bunch of butcher bathers swimming in his cesspool existence. Gives Christians such a bad reputation. Not unlike the Catholic Church that hasn’t publicly ex-communicated Catholic Pro-Abort politicians and those voting for them.