Judge Orders That Abortion Records Must Be Given To Grand Jury
Wichita, KS - Judge Paul Buchanan ruled today that medical records must be handed over to a grand jury investigating illegal late-term abortions at George R. Tiller’s Women’s Health Care Services under the condition that identifying information about the patients be redacted. The records will then be provided to an independent attorney and physician appointed by the judge. They will screen the records to determine if there are irregularities before turning them over to the grand jury.
“Today’s ruling is a victory for truth and justice,” said Operation Rescue President Troy Newman, who was present during the court hearing.
A cadre of six attorneys was in court on Tiller’s behalf for another failed attempt to persuade Judge Buchanan to quash subpoenas that had been issued by the citizen-called grand jury, which is asking for nearly 2,000 abortion records over the past five years. Tiller’s legal team was joined by Bonnie Scott Jones of New York’s Center for Reproductive Rights, who argued on behalf of three former Tiller patients that the records be denied or heavily redacted for privacy considerations.
“The privacy that they seem so worried about is just a red herring to deflect attention from any wrongdoing Tiller may be trying to hide. There will be no way to identify individual women from the redacted records, nor would there be any reason to do so. We find it shameful that Tiller would hide behind the skirts of his patients in an effort to protect himself from having to turn over potentially incriminating evidence,” said Newman.
Jones told the court of one of her clients, who had a late-term abortion by Tiller because her baby suffered from serious fetal anomalies. However, fetal anomaly is not a legal reason to obtain late abortion in Kansas.
“Bonnie Jones basically admitted in open court that Tiller gave one of her clients an illegal abortion,” said Newman. “I found it shocking that she could describe in detail her client’s reasons for having the abortion and not understand that. She is either grossly ignorant of Kansas law, or so arrogant that she does not flinch at admitting to the illegal abortion. Either way, it is obvious that the lawyers are more concerned with covering for Tiller than protecting patient privacy, or she would not have given so much medical detail in court.”
Lee Thompson, Tiller’s lead attorney, said he intends to file another mandamus action with the Kansas Supreme Court asking for a stay. In the meantime, the process of producing the records will begin on Thursday morning.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Oooooo this is so sweet!
Hey, anyone thought of subjecting the records documents to a luminol test? Just curious.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:28 am
How sweet indeed it is.
This is the furthest we’ve ever gotten to prosecuting Tiller…so keep praying that with every day, the system will get closer to avenging the deaths of all the babies Tiller has killed.
Once he is in prison, and his mill shut down, there should be dancing in the streets…and it WILL happen.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Everyone knows the truth about Tiller and he can hide no more! Tiller’s “protectors” also know they are in trouble if they continue to defend him. To think of the suffering he has caused these tiny babies is reason to send him to prison for life, to show no mercy on a man who has lived his life only to destroy the lives of others.
February 1st, 2008 at 8:10 am
Ms. Staggers………..
Have you perused the book “Life” by the celebrated photographer Lennart Nillson? Is this not a wondrous book - a book that should be required reading for anyone entering a relationship - and even those who aren’t - or are years away from doing so?
I would ask you, “Is this book not enough?”
Let us allow the miracle of life to speak for itself. Let us avoid untrue statements. Dr. Tiller has not lived his life “only to destroy the lives of others.” He and his wife of more than 40 years raised five children. None of these children (all adults) is estranged from his/her parents.
Candidly, the mournful legacy of parental indifference is something I know way too much about. (Parental apathy and purported “pro-life” activism are rather strange bedfellows, I must say.)
Finally, it is my understanding that Dr. Tiller does not utilize the infamous “partial-birth” abortion procedure; rather, he injects the fetal heart with an agent that induces instant death. Is this the protracted sadism of which you accuse him? Probably not.
Is it immoral? Yes, in my opinion.
I cannot always live up to Christ’s command to despise the act - but love those who commit those acts. I don’t have difficulty in Dr. Tiller’s case - I have met him and found him kind and forgiving. I have inestimable difficulty with the gleefully sadistic - whether they be rapists, child abusers, powerful people who cover up the damnable crimes of others, etc.
It’s not often that I’ll check out a book from the Wichita Public Library - and return it far in advance of its due date - just so others can benefit from its truth and beauty. (I’m far too lazy, and a tad too greedy, to do so.)
Perhaps “Life” should be the focus here - not the overarching criticisms.
February 1st, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Pro Choice(Death):
You write,
“Finally, it is my understanding that Dr. Tiller does not utilize the infamous “partial-birth” abortion procedure; rather, he injects the fetal heart with an agent that induces instant death. Is this the protracted sadism of which you accuse him? Probably not.”
–Let me get this straight: You are contending that injecting a little baby’s beating heart with poison, resulting in death, is somehow acceptable? Killing is killing — period. The baby is just as dead. The mother is just as emotionally scarred.
–”Your understanding?” Did you even read the article you’re responding to, wherein his own attorneys basically admitter Tiller performed an illegal late term abortion?
“I cannot always live up to Christ’s command to despise the act - but love those who commit those acts. I don’t have difficulty in Dr. Tiller’s case - I have met him and found him kind and forgiving.”
–Forgiving? Of who? The countless thousands of little babies he’s slaughtered in return for cash? Forgiveness? We don’t need his forgiveness.
–So he was kind to you. So what of it? Reading your post, I was reminded of Shakespeare: One may “smile, and smile, and be a villain.” So Tiller was nice to you. He’s a villain by his deeds, which speak for themselves.
–Besides, even if he acted “kind” to you, consider that he’s surely smart enough to know that he should act “kind and forgiving” when it suits his purpose. I have no doubt that Tiller acts the part of a sweet, kind, caring man, as long as he can help his wallet directly or indirectly by doing so. However, I can’t really see anyone who, a thousand times over, injects a little baby’s heart with enough chemicals to cause instantaneous death, being objectively “kind.” Sorry. No way. I’m not having any of it.
February 1st, 2008 at 8:42 pm
To Pro Choice to a Point: It is difficult to understand how a “family man” who has the support and dedication of his wife and children could so easily take the life of an unborn child. I am puzzled by that. A man who is a doctor, who has taken an oath to preserve and protect life. I am astounded by his lack of empathy or remorse. I am sure he has heard the cry of a live aborted baby: I am sure he has felt the tiny little legs and arms move away from his knife and cringe at his touch. I am sure he has looked into the face of these babies and I wonder what his emotion is. I am sure he has stared at the mangled bodies, the fragile forms of what might have been and I struggle to look inside the soul of a man who has no mercy for the pain he has caused. I know he has carried heaps of babies to the incinerator as if he was taking out the garbage. The sins he carries has worn heavy upon him. He knows what he has done. The gloom of despair is written upon his face. No, I don’t condemn him: that is up to God. My heart just does not understand the why. Does he ever look at the delicate intricacies of God’s creation and touch their little arms and hands and feel the softness and fragile skin which has been marred by his instruments, the torn little bodies which lie limp in the arms of death. I cringe at the thought of him pulling and grasping at their defensless baby parts holding on to the clasp of life in their mother’s womb. If the method is the lethal injection into the heart, the baby tries to escape the fateful pain of surrender to the needle which stops his beating heart. He knows the sound of his mother’s voice, the peaceful jostling in the womb, the serenity of blissful protection and meeting of all of his needs. Does he also sense his death decree? The cold, insensitive, definitive way his mother’s body is attacked by a frightening source has to be felt by this baby which is intertwined with his mother, body and soul. His mother is his only protection and she has dealt the final blow. Anxiety, hormones, emotions travel to the source of his little being. I wonder…….does he know? It is his mother who has killed him? George Tiller has become rich killing babies and women have bought into his lies!
I can only brazenly compare him to the devil himself! The world has adopted to the spirit of evil promoted by Satin. Respect, compassion and caring for human life has disappeared among those who choose abortion. Listen to your heart and tell me that it is ok to destroy a tiny baby. Anyone who has accepted abortion has given their hearts over to Satin and to death. In the end, it will be their own death because God has no room for murderers in His kingdom. For those who say they don’t believe in God, tell me that the next time we have a major catastrophe, as in 911 or Katrina. The first thing everybody does when they are in trouble is pray. Even on TV, everyone says “PRAY!’ Even the ones who say they don’t believe! Who else do you have to turn to if there is no God? God does not approve of His babies being killed. We must stop Tiller and all of the other Tillers who have no respect for life!
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:30 am
Frank………
Allow me to repeat myself (i.e., re-visit my original post….if you can be bothered to do so). What did I say?
“Is it immoral? In my opinion, yes.”
Excuse my bluntness, but how in the world did you miss that one? No, I don’t think these acts are “OK.” Furthermore, the “illegal late-term abortion” that you cite was not described as a partial-birth abortion. Dr. Tiller has gone on record as opposing this procedure. Let us be clear here, because the truth is painful enough.
Obviously, it is the fetal demise which must be considered. Even if this death induced an opiate-like euphoria, fetal demise would still ensue. This is the grave moral dimension, not Dr. Tiller’s purported sadism.
Finally, there is a human element to this moral question which no one - not you, me or anyone else - can abrogate: the right of an individual to judge herself. I am not alleging that you or others need Dr. Tiller’s forgiveness.
It is my conviction that I needed this forgiveness, just as profoundly as it is my current conviction that I cannot work in an abortion clinic. I will not accept your insults or your caustic dismissal of my own feelings (not “pro-death” feelings, as you put it - but merely the kindness and forgiveness of another person). It’s your right to express them - I do not accept them.
Ms. Staggers: You are a nurse, so I must surely respect this self-sacrifice and dedication. I would, however, respectfully remind you that, when judging individual sin and culpability, we must ask ourselves these questions: Is the individual conscious of this sin? Does he or she perceive the sinfulness therein? Does he or she revel in the pain they cause others?
My former church condemns abortion most strenuously, yet it stresses these aforementioned elements when judging individuals. I repeat, it does not accept or condone abortion - in any circumstance.
I was impregnated by somebody who exuded these deficits in extravagance. I’ve never understood sadism and don’t understand it now. I find it impossible to equate these two men; I find it rather farcical.
When I introduced myself to Dr. Tiller more than two years ago, I was honest: I am a post-abortive woman with residual difficulties, I stated. He then graciously accepted my apology. He did not offer propaganda. There was certainly “nothing to be gained” from me, as I believe Frank is alleging.
Insults and bigotry will not end abortion. Love, commitment, respect for families (not only one’s own) and a reverence for one another (ALL of us, including fetuses, married and non-married folk, pro-choice and pro-life, newly menopausal minstrels who need forgiveness, etc.)
Again, I would ask that you peruse the wonderbook book I cited. That is probably more pervasive than any invective any of us can hurl.
February 4th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Pro-Choice (Death):
Your rambling and ill-conceived post — when it can even be understood at all — makes absolutely no sense. Moreover, you do not address the errors in your own arguments from your first post.
The basis of your first post could be summed up as “George Tiller and his wife have children, are kind, and aren’t in favor of partial birth abortion.”
–My response can be boiled down to “his actions show him to be unkind, and killing thousands of innocent children — possibly by illegal late term abortions — renders his ‘opinion’ deceitful.
You write, “Obviously, it is the fetal demise which must be considered. Even if this death induced an opiate-like euphoria, fetal demise would still ensue. This is the grave moral dimension, not Dr. Tiller’s purported sadism.”
–Let’s examine the first part of your statement — ‘the fetal demise must be considered.’
–Okay, let’s consider it. Abortion causes ‘fetal demise’ or in non-spin: DEATH. Period. No exceptions. I ‘consider’ this — and I see it for what it is. Why are you so fooled by it? because George Tiller acted “kind” to you? Are you so easily fooled?
–Let’s call it, what it is: Killing a child.
You write, “Finally, there is a human element to this moral question which no one - not you, me or anyone else - can abrogate: the right of an individual to judge herself.”
–With due respect: Nonsense. Please explain exactly where the “right of an individual to judge herself” derives from. Moral law? Civil law? No to either. The “right to judge oneself” is a fiction created to allow people to wash their hands of any wrongs they do under the mantra of “I judge myself!” No “law” which I am aware of places in the hands of each person the right to unilaterally judge themselves or their conduct. If it did, anarchy would result. One key basis of moral law is that a higher power judges us on an objective standard. Civil law authorizes society to judge the acts (and at times the lives) of those within in — but there is no “right” to judge oneself.
–Part of the reason for this, if you consider it, makes perfect sense, namely, if each of us judges ourselves, few would ever condemn themselves. No one is ever as hard on themselves as they should be.
“I will not accept your insults…”
–I have never insulted you. If you feel insulted… I don’t care. No one has a right to never have their feelings hurt.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
To Pro-Choice: Frank pretty much summed it up in his above post…your “logic” is completely laughable, at best.
Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, et.al., I’m sure, could also be friendly when necessary.
What kind of drugs are you on, anyway???
February 5th, 2008 at 8:57 am
No “right to judge myself?” Sir????
My head’s kinda spinning on that one……..You’re addressing an ex-Catholic, where weekly confession and a daily examination of one’s own faults were hardly anathema.
Okay, let me break it down for you. If I had no right and/or obligation to judge myself, I would have likely applied for the clerical position at Dr. Tiller’s clinic. Because he was kind to me, and because my beliefs were more clearly defined at that time, I was (initially) inclined to apply. However……..my inability to do so opened the proverbial Pandora’s box.
I was forced to examine my own beliefs, my own history, my own behavior, my faults as well as my strengths, etc. Furthermore, the fact that my religious beliefs aren’t exactly what they once were (and likely don’t match your own) isn’t something I’m ashamed of.
However, I understand (to a point) your contention that there must be a higher morality to which we should aspire. This has caused me not only to gravely question the morality of my abortion - but it contributes to my inability to force my own beliefs upon everyone else.
Like you, I believe the immorality of later-term abortions transcends the beliefs of individual persons. I understand and respect that you do not agree with me when it comes to all abortions - and that is your right to do so. I’m neither condemning you to hell nor setting you up as a paragon.
God (whoever that is) doesn’t create robots in his/her image. We are given our own intellect, our freedom to worship the faith which moves our hearts, and a conscience to govern our actions. No right to judge myself? I don’t think my former confessor would agree with you on that one, Frank.
If I had no right to judge myself, I wouldn’t be remorseful for many things, not the least of which is this gem: Last spring, while I and many drivers were stuck behind one of the interminable trains which snarl downtown Wichita, I drove up adjacent to a middle-aged man whose Georgia license plate was nestled lovingly amidst several anti-abortion bumper stickers.
Don’t ask me how, but somehow I conveyed to the gent that I was post-abortive. At some point, I thought I heard him declare, “You don’t want to be sad forever, do you?” To which I retorted, “You don’t want to…….tie…..me…..to……a…..tree, do you?”
Mr. Georgia turned dead white under his tan, the caboose soon whizzed by, and the kind soul drove off in a flash. And I’m left feeling like (crap).
No right to judge myself? You’ve gotta come up with something better than that when you’re rebuking the recalcitrant, Frank.
February 5th, 2008 at 10:03 am
To Pro-choice to a Point
God is all about love and forgiveness. He is our Father, our Friend, our Partner when noone else is there! He is all forgiving. We only need to ask for His Presence in our life and the door opens to a relationship where one may commune on a constant basis and shut out the world which can be hurtful and unfair. Spending time with Him gives us the courage to face the parts of life which we don’t understand. He is our Protector, our Go Between with the unknown. He is our Healer and the one who cares more than people. When one feels misunderstood, prayer lends the strength to continue on and eases the conflict within our souls. The sadness and guilt we carry can sometimes be too much to bear. He is our Only Comforter. He understands. He forgives. He loves you. He knows our weakness. He does not hold it against us. If we put our hand in His, He will carry us through. Ignore the condemnation of the world. Turn to the only one whose love is unconditional. Regarding Tiller: He is under “strong delusion. This comes from his choices to follow Satin”s evil path for him. Tiller is on a “mission.” He thinks he is helping women. His convictions are “out of tune” with God’s purpose for his life. If he asked forgiveness, his life would turn around! Does Tiller care that he inflicts pain on babies and women. “No.” He is immune to the heart and sounds of suffering. He has done it for so long, his conscience is jaded. The act of abortion is so detestable that is is difficult to look at Tiller without animosity. He is being used as a “tool of the devil” to carry out the “mission of sin” created by Satin to hurt Our Father. And “Our Father “hurts for the sins of this world. Tiller can be forgiven just as anyone else. It is his choice. Everyone has a “choice.” That is “Our Master’s Plan.” Noone is forced to choose life. so far Tiller has only chosen death. God will decide if He wants a “babykiller” in His kingdom, it is not up to me. If sin is plainly before us, we need to “run the other way!.” It is not judgmental to point out where sin lies in wait. Abortion is one deep dark hole where the enemy lurks. Anyone who leads a woman in that direction or condones abortion is being guided by Satin. Reach out to the “source of light.” The babies from abortion are Heavenbound. Mothers can receive forgiveness and meet them as whole again. The “Plan of Salvation” is simple. Forgiveness is the end of the torment of the soul. I will pray for the end of the conflict of feeling related to abortion and for the healing of those who need the touch of God’s hand upon their heart. A new life in Christ replaces the old one tormented by guilt and condemnation. I ask God in prayer to keep me from being judgmental and to help me to humbly lead His beloved children to the Throne of Grace, including Tiller. Let us all pray for his conversion.
Everyone who comes to this site needs to feel an acceptance and love which is promoted through the love of Christ. I am sorry if this has not been portrayed. We need to show the open arms of Jesus.
February 5th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Alayna: Thank you for your heartfelt statements. Owing to my Catholic history, I can certainly understand them.
May I please digress a bit and ask you a question? As I have great respect for the nursing profession (as well as the teaching profession and others), may I ask you about the “double effect rule”? I understand it in principle - I’m not so clear about its practical application.
If a woman is far along in her pregnancy, and her health becomes threatened, what can a doctor and/or nurse do to save her life without directly aborting the baby?
My former church is very strict about many things (too strict, in some respects). However, it respects the double effect rule. It allows doctors to attempt valiantly to save the mother’s life. If the child’s life is INADVERTENTLY lost in so doing, no sin is committed. The converse is true as well - if the mother’s life is inadvertently imperiled and the child survives - no error is made.
We have made great strides in the medical/obstetrical field in the past 40 years. C-sections are no longer dangerous if performed by a highly skilled physician. What is the protocol for these procedures?
I believe that not enough discussion surrounds this principle: our churches do not discuss it enough; those on both sides of this debate do not consider it deeply enough; all of us need to consider this more fully. If we would, perhaps we could alleviate some of the stress and angst childbearing women face.
Mike - I’m not on any “drugs.” That’s as silly as the dude who told me I “walked into a pit” all those years ago at age 16. Then again, I did beat a nay-stee addiction to (prescription) painkillers twice: in 2002 and last year. I was so relaxed that I curled up into a nice little ball and woke up with my face in my armpit. A most unnatural position that somehow seemed familiar - given my chemical euphoria.
Anyway, you two dudes need to take a lesson from Alayna. Alayna, I would really be interested in what you can impart about the double effect rule. Thanks!
February 5th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Pro-Choice (Death):
“No right to judge myself? You’ve gotta come up with something better than that when you’re rebuking the recalcitrant, Frank.”
–Actually, you are doing a fine job of it yourself, without my even needing to write anything at all.
–I asked in my earlier post: ‘Please explain exactly where the “right of an individual to judge herself” derives from.’ You did not answer, other than to suggest, “uh, because I say so.” You may not like my position (that no such right exists) but if you allege you have such a right, it’s up to YOU to convince US of the truth of this, not the other way around.
–While we’re at it, let’s look at some other things you’re coming up with.
You have admitted to being post-abortive. ou’ve admitted to accosting a total stranger based on bumper stickers on his car — and then asking him if he’s going to commit a violent crime against you (and you seem to find this amusing, as you refer to this incident as a ‘gem.’). You’ve admitted to past drug abuse on two occasions over a period of years. None of us is perfect, but, no offense, the more you post, the more you rather depict yourself as someone with many personal “issues” which makes “reasoning” with you rather challenging, and which makes you very hard to take seriously. This makes me wonder — perhaps the abortion was the root of some or all of these issues?
February 5th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Doctors make mistakes. For myself, I would rather have faith in God and take the chance of carrying my baby to term. Dwelling on God’s love and mercy produces a more positive result than obsessing over sin. Sin is the outcome of lack of faith and devotion to God and His Plan for our life. If we trust in His guidance, he will provide the way. I recently read a story of a mom who was pregnant with twins and unknowing to her, these babies kicked and dislodged tumors from her cervical area which saved her life. The doctors wanted her to end the pregnancy, but she refused. the outcome was positive. Babies survived and she later received the treatment she needed. This mother loved her babies more than her own life and took a risk. She trusted in God. I would rather follow His path even if the events did not turn out the way I had hoped than follow the ways of sin and lose my salvation. God loves you and He forgives all of our shortcomings. Our Father loves us with an unconditional love and we need not worry about our past sins. Today is ours to give to Him!
February 6th, 2008 at 1:06 am
Pro-Choice: Once again, I think Frank has hit the nail on the head…regarding your abortion being the root of many of your issues, and your struggle to justify it in your mind.
You are obviously a disgruntled former Catholic. Fine. Be disgruntled all you want, but don’t blame the Church for your abortion. You made the choice…not the Church.
As a Catholic, you knew what the Church’s position on abortion is, and you did it anyway.
“Cafeteria Catholics” can’t pick and choose what doctrines they want to live by and believe. It doesn’t work that way.
You can be forgiven for your abortion, if you are truly repentant, but don’t go bashing the church because you broke the rules, got in trouble, then took your ball and ran home.
February 6th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Thank you, Alayna, for sharing that powerful story. As a nurse, you obviously deal with human suffering every day in myriad ways. Moreover, your faith means very much to you; I hope this commitment continues to enhance and ennoble your life.
Mike/Frank: Again, let’s strive for truth here. Mikey, I wasn’t Catholic when I had my abortion at age 16. I converted at age 18, experienced thirteen committed years, and left the Church at age 31. I did not try to “have it both ways.” Candidly, I do not believe in this. I attempted to communicate with my Bishop; he responded by asking for more donations; I reflected agonizingly for several months, and left soon after.
Sorry - but that’s another overweening theory of yours that doesn’t hold water.
Many, many people struggle with prescription painkillers. I will not address why this is so; suffice it to say I overcame my addiction without rehab, rehashed Catechism or hashish.
Frank, I’m still scratching my cranium here. Individuals MUST judge themselves, especially if their faith requires it. One doesn’t go to confession to chat about the neighbors over milk and cookies. One must consider his/her sins, come to grips with his or her guilt, and confess accordingly. Not to be rude, but I don’t owe you or anyone an explanation for this. Does leaving the Catholic Church absolve me of moral judgment - especially from myself? Probably not.
Here’s another troubling thing: I find it rather interesting that neither you nor Mike addressed the excellent book I (initially) cited, or took any interest in the double effect rule. Rather, you were more interested in belittling me.
Why don’t you take the high road, congratulate yourselves on your obvious moral superiority, thank your lucky stars you aren’t enduring what one doctor describes as nature’s gender genocide, and thank goodness you aren’t me? (Then again, even a perfunctory look at Tom Cruise of late makes me wonder if men don’t experience similar tragedies…..)
What’s more important here? Championing the cause of life in a positive way - or poking big fun at the elderly? For shame, gentlemen - for shame.
You won’t make any headway with me with that noise. It’s old. It’s tired. (Just like me)
February 6th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Dear Pro-Choice to a point …..We are not counselors, ministers, priests here. Sometimes it is best to consult someone who has had experience in this area to help one heal. If you overcome an addiction to anything, there is a lot of work to do after that. Addiction counseling, Narcotics Anonomous may help you understand some of the emotions you are going through. AA and NA are great programs for anyone to attend, even if they don’t have an addiction. Living life on lifes terms. All kinds of support. You don’t have to be using to go. Just go for the great friendship and support there! I guarantee you will find people who will not condemn you. As a nurse, I have attended thesemeetings with people for my benefit as well as theirs and the love and guidance when asked is wonderful. You don;t have to say anything. Just sit there and listen. I learned from attending the meetings, so I know you could too. You need some friends and people who will accept you and listen with no judgment. Please try it! I will pray for you!
Your friend, alayna
February 6th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Pro-Choice (Death) & Mike:
P-C:
With due respect, your view of the Catholic sacrament of Penance (commonly called confession but more recently referred to as Reconciliation, or more fully the Sacrament of Reconciliation) is totally 100% wrong. The Roman Catholic Church views confession as the method given by Christ to the Church by which individuals may confess sins have them absolved/forgiven.
Roman Catholics believe that priests have been given the authority by God to exercise the forgiveness of sins here on earth, through His authority. Paraphrased, the priest during the Sacrament of Penance is a stand-in for Jesus whose authority it is to forgive sins. This power belongs to Jesus alone; however, God can and does exercise it through the Roman Catholic priesthood.
Critically, the point of Roman Catholic confession is not to “judge oneself” as you postulate but to instead admit guilt –period — to the only One who may judge us, i.e., God, through His intermediaries. “Judging oneself” is very different that admitting guild to God. Moreover, when most people in our tangled word say they are “judging themselves,” they generally finish with “I did nothing wrong!”
One again you keep insisting that we are insulting you, belittling you, poking fun, etc. I am doing nothing of the sort, and certainly do not intend to.
Mike:
Thanks for the props! I agree with your posts. Happy Ash Wednesday. Have an easy fast today. I’m already famished.
–Frank
February 6th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Thanks, Alayna, for the sage wisdom. I appreciate it; and you are 100% correct. My addiction, short-lived as it was, probably isn’t the crux of the issue. However, my immersion in this (abortion) issue has made me confront some critical facts about myself - some positive, others not so positive.
Early last year, I actually did meet with a local author, scholar and pro-life activist. His statements certainly caused me to reflect. (Fortunately, he didn’t insult me or call me names. I knew enough about him - and had perused enough of his works - to know he wouldn’t stoop to this.) He complimented me on my knowledge of papal encyclicals, too. He said, “I think you’ve probably read more of the official documents than most priests!”
Frank: I think I see where you’re goin’ with this. I think we may be having a bit of a semantics problem. As a Catholic, we believed that God is the ultimate judge - certainly. However, before going to confession we were to examine our actions critically. That’s what I meant by “judge”. It’s also something I’ve done more than once during the past year.
There isn’t anything wrong with that, Frank! If there were, I’d probably still be traumatizing wandering, out-of-state pro-lifers with my thinly-veiled contempt and irrational fears.
Sheesh, dude - give me a break! Do we have to split hairs on this fine afternoon? What would you have me do - wander through life with the same moral somnambulance as my newly-disabled ex? I don’t want to do that - then I’D be the one relying on Mandy, Candy and Brandy - the trio of reform school dropouts I keep shackled in the basement to keep me from falling in a puddle of my own urine.
I’m too refined - much too refined - for that.
February 6th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I am not Catholic. In fact, I am a Seventh-day Adventist. My belief system is more of my own creation. I try not to complicate things too much. I don’t worry about yesterday. Today is all we have. I know we all need someone we can confide in and trust who will boost our self-esteem, not tear it down. If there is noone close, sometimes we need to seek professional help, someone who isn’t close to the issue who can be totally non judgmental. We all have skeletons in our closet to deal with and often we carry guilt around which we don’t have to. God is not complicated! If your concerns are relating to your Catholic beliefs, then I would suggest going to a priest. If your problems are psycholigical, there are places to go where you can receive help based on your income. You are seeking help from someone or you wouldn”t be on this site. Please venture out to get the comfort, assistance, and friendship which you need. don”t listen to criticism from anyone here, because we have No RIGHT TO CRITICIZE! apparantly you have issues which are troubling you deeply and you need someone who will be there for you. Your connection to your church is between you and God. Noone else can dictate your belief system. I go directly to My Lord and Savior for guidance and forgiveness, I don’t take a detour through a priest. Please open your phone book and seek a minister, doctor, or some social agency who can connect you with someone who you can lean on so you will not be alone. I think there is more going on here than can be dealt with on this site. You don’t need condemnation, you need a friend. OK?